2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax

[E4 No More]

I sure as heck didn't escape paying income tax.

[LagerHead]

Fair Tax.

It's so simple, so effective, so well ... fair.

But it takes away gummit control over the individual, and allows pols to tweak code for votes, so it will never happen.

- OS

The "Fair Tax" is fairer, but it's not fair. The rich still get penalized for being rich by paying more for government that they don't necessarily use more of. It's like charging for a car based on how much you make.

The only really fair tax would be to send every single American a bill for

budget/300million

That way everybody pays exactly their share. Neither will ever happen though.

Be delusional if you want too, A fair tax, a flat tax, a what ever you want to call it tax will not fix the problems with the Fed Gov or the current tax structure. The founding fathers spelled out in the Constitution how the Fed Gov. was to rasie it's revenue, That's what should be adhered too. However this will result in a drastic and needed reduction in the size and power of the Fed Gov, and return power to the states. The Federal reserve should also be abolished as it is not Federal and is not a Reserve,it was created in the dark of night by and is owned by 12 private member banks. The Constitution gave the Congress the power to coin and create money

not the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank.

By chance have you been reading Nepolitano's latest book?

Be prepared for the Value Added Tax (VAT) to be instituted without eliminating the income tax.

In other words, BOHICA.

Yeah they are going to get their beloved Fair Tax in the form of a VAT, I just wonder what the rate will be. And will this be before or after they raid your 401K or IRA's. In Denmark in 1993 the VAT was 28%. That's 28% tax on every Kroner you spent.

Mmmmm, Socialism with a heaping side of government waste. Can I have seconds?

[Oh Shoot]

The "Fair Tax" is fairer, but it's not fair. The rich still get penalized for being rich by paying more for government that they don't necessarily use more of. It's like charging for a car based on how much you make. ...

No, it's not.

You don't have to buy more items, or more expensive items than me, just because you have more money than me.

Past a expenditure for necessities, the amount and type of consumption becomes entirely voluntary. Wanna pay less tax? Buy less stuff.

- OS

[Mike.357]

I do not think the Fair Tax is out of the realm of possiblity in my lifetime. Likely no, possible, yes.

Wanna see someone basically not buy anything but what is absolutely needed, then wait and watch me if they ever enact it. I will shut down.

[MCSCOTT]

I do not think the Fair Tax is out of the realm of possiblity in my lifetime. Likely no, possible, yes.

Wanna see someone basically not buy anything but what is absolutely needed, then wait and watch me if they ever enact it. I will shut down.

That's how I would be too, along with a big portion of the country. With that in mind though, they would end up putting a higher tax of some sort on those items that are absolutely needed, or come up with some other way of taking from us. As I've said before, to me it seems obvious that the issue isn't as much with the tax system as it is with government spending. Until someone somewhere finds some way of getting the government spending under control, then we as taxpayers are going to continue to get screwed over.

[Hgunner]

Wanna see someone basically not buy anything but what is absolutely needed, then wait and watch me if they ever enact it. I will shut down.

Nothing personal Mike, just using your statement as an example.

Wonder why countries with extremely high taxes and VAT's have very low rates of economic growth.

[LagerHead]

No, it's not.

You don't have to buy more items, or more expensive items than me, just because you have more money than me.

Past a expenditure for necessities, the amount and type of consumption becomes entirely voluntary. Wanna pay less tax? Buy less stuff.

- OS

No, you don't have to buy more stuff, or more expensive stuff. But then what exactly is your reward for working harder? Driving the same old beat up jalopy as the guy that cleans your toilets?

Besides, a consumption tax is still not fair. If I buy two bags of Doritos, am I using more government than my next door neighbor who buys one, and drives the same kind of car down the same roads to get home, protected by the same police and the same military, and screwed by the same Congressmen and Senators? No, so why should I pay more for them?

Like I said, fairer, but still not fair.

[Mike.357]

Nothing personal Mike, just using your statement as an example.

Wonder why countries with extremely high taxes and VAT's have very low rates of economic growth.

no offense taken.

I am probably not typical of most people though.

I am not into material posessions, if my TV works I do not need a new one because technology updated, my stereo was bought in '89 and still sounds great, you get the idea. And I buy used when possible.

This is a materialistic nation, my taxes would not be missed.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

No tax is fair. The fair tax is more equitable, like our state sales tax.

There is an obvious bias in our current system against the taxpayer, and one in favor

of the recipient. That is wrong. If everyone is paying the tax they wouldn't like that representative of theirs so much, when he or she tries to raise taxes. It would be a strong start to shrink government when everyone is 'contributing' to their government.

[Hgunner]

No, you don't have to buy more stuff, or more expensive stuff. But then what exactly is your reward for working harder? Driving the same old beat up jalopy as the guy that cleans your toilets?

Besides, a consumption tax is still not fair. If I buy two bags of Doritos, am I using more government than my next door neighbor who buys one, and drives the same kind of car down the same roads to get home, protected by the same police and the same military, and screwed by the same Congressmen and Senators? No, so why should I pay more for them?

Like I said, fairer, but still not fair.

You just can't make everybody happy. I think and I may very well be wrong. That in the Fair Tax system as proposed essencial items would not be taxed IE: food/clothing or these amounts would be rebated.

Your reward for working harder would be you could afford the nice car and be able to pay the tax. Your reward now for working harder is what, escalting yourself into the next tax backet and paying more SS taxes,Medicare Tax, and income taxes, what a nice incentive huh.

At least under the Fair Tax you would have a choice as to consume and pay the tax or to hold and save or invest your money. There are things that I do not like about it also. I see the bigger issue as how much revenue the Fed's collect and how much they spend regardless of the tax base used.They are doing things they should not be and never were intended to be doing.

[DavidD]

I sure as heck didn't escape paying income tax.

Me neither and haven't since I was 16. WTF?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Fair Tax will still need to be augmented with holding the politicians feet to the fire. It won't fix the whole problem without accountability from our elected spenders.

Judge Napolitano said, in one of his books, that a rewording of the commerce clause

would limit the government's ability to do the damage they have been wreaking on us.

Abolishing the IRS outright would be, also. He said that a Constitutional convention is

needed to fix a few other phrases and strike down some amendments would be necessary. It needs to happen.

I'm glad someone with a real background in law is saying that. I haven't heard it from others. They must be hyenas or sheep, or maybe benefit from our misery.

[macville]

If "the average American" cannot look at their paystub, and their 1040 and figure out what they are paying in taxes, a Fair Tax isn't going to give them anymore gray matter.

See, that's the problem. Every single person in America is actually paying far more in taxes than what their paystub and 1040 shows. There is this thing called a "business tax" that the feds, state and local govs inflict on businesses. The problem with that is businesses don't pay a single penny in tax. All they do is COLLECT the tax from the consumer and pass it on to the respective gov. I'm a small business owner and I simply include all taxes levied on my business in the cost of my product/service. It's that simple. But most Americans don't know that (which is why we always hear "tax businesses!" from them.) The FairTax would eliminate federal business tax and make up for it in the straight tax at the retail level. Right now, it's really a hidden VAT on EVERY item you buy.

People are going to start asking questions when they see a 30% exclusive tax on every receipt.

Matthew

[Mike.357]

scenario: constitutional convention happens. the man agrees to do the Fair Tax if 2a is repealed.

What do you think would happen?

[Hgunner]

scenario: constitutional convention happens. the man agrees to do the Fair Tax if 2a is repealed.

What do you think would happen?

Well that would be a deal breaker.

[Guest strelcevina]

taxes are just like German Shepherd...they steering witch directions sheep's are going

Gov..got us to switch habits and start to buy stuff online. by simply allowing us to save on taxes.

Soon we get dependent on online shopping ,they will come with some new taxes .= bbq:)

[Farman]

Well that would be a deal breaker.

Betcha not. Money talks and the 2A walks.....

I honestly feel the way our government works, a constitutional convention would be a money pit that would continue for years and years. It would involve lawyers and we see how the SCOTUS and other supreme courts interpret things sometimes.

The healthcare bill was 200+ pages, a new constitution would be 200,000+ pages.

It's something I wouldn't want to see come about.

[Krull]

We payed over 12k together last year-----my refund was 11 dollars. BS pisses me off.

[LagerHead]

You just can't make everybody happy. I think and I may very well be wrong. That in the Fair Tax system as proposed essencial items would not be taxed IE: food/clothing or these amounts would be rebated.

Your reward for working harder would be you could afford the nice car and be able to pay the tax. Your reward now for working harder is what, escalting yourself into the next tax backet and paying more SS taxes,Medicare Tax, and income taxes, what a nice incentive huh.

At least under the Fair Tax you would have a choice as to consume and pay the tax or to hold and save or invest your money. There are things that I do not like about it also. I see the bigger issue as how much revenue the Fed's collect and how much they spend regardless of the tax base used.They are doing things they should not be and never were intended to be doing.

My issue with the fair tax boils down to this: the argument FOR it can be simplified to say, you make more money than me, so I am entitled to some of it. You can argue and say that is not the case, but that's exactly what it says. The more you make and spend, the more we tax you. And much of the tax burden goes to social programs.

Fair or not is really not the issue though. Spending is the issue. Until something really, really radical happens in this country, we'll all just continue to bend over and take it prison style, because these hyenas are not going to change their spots, or whatever the saying is. So if you don't like it, basically your choice right now boils down to risking prison time, or keeping the lube handy.

[Magiccarpetrides]

alright I will bite:

Heres my problem I deal with these lazy f*cking people all day that pay no taxes, continue to have more kids then they can afford, and are a drain on the system. Then I get to hear about how unfair it is they cannot afford health care and how this obamacare is going to be so great. Then they remark how this year because they can now claim 3 of their 4 kids (by at least 2-3 different dads) the government is going to give them $7,000+ (keeping in mind they didnt pay in sh*t). Typically these are the "mainstream" that government likes to talk about. Heres the other side of the coin "Tim" the contractor makes about $60,000 but because he does work under the table and under-reports everything he actually qualifies for an "earned income credit" and gets money back....yeah....that could be part of the reason the country is in such debt. This is why I would love a fair tax...you can't hide what you buy and if your a lazy p.o.s. baby factory you still pay the same percentage as me....*end rant* (yes I know the grammar on this is atrocious)

[MCSCOTT]

alright I will bite:

Heres my problem I deal with these lazy f*cking people all day that pay no taxes, continue to have more kids then they can afford, and are a drain on the system. Then I get to hear about how unfair it is they cannot afford health care and how this obamacare is going to be so great. Then they remark how this year because they can now claim 3 of their 4 kids (by at least 2-3 different dads) the government is going to give them $7,000+ (keeping in mind they didnt pay in sh*t). Typically these are the "mainstream" that government likes to talk about. Heres the other side of the coin "Tim" the contractor makes about $60,000 but because he does work under the table and under-reports everything he actually qualifies for an "earned income credit" and gets money back....yeah....that could be part of the reason the country is in such debt. This is why I would love a fair tax...you can't hide what you buy and if your a lazy p.o.s. baby factory you still pay the same percentage as me....*end rant* (yes I know the grammar on this is atrocious)

All well put. I was just talking with someone this morning about another person I know who pisses me off. He works maybe 2 days a week, makes much less per hour than I do when he does work, yet when all is said and done he brings home more a week than I do.

[Hgunner]

The healthcare bill was 200+ pages, a new constitution would be 200,000+ pages.

It's something I wouldn't want to see come about.

The so called Healthcare bill is 2700 + pages, I have stated before in other threads that a constitution convention would be a disaster for the country and conservatives as a whole. Only when the last Marxist/Progressive/Liberal/NWO types body lies rotting in the sun

being picked clean by Buzzards would it be safe to call a Constitutional Convention.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Hgunner

[mikegideon]

I sure as heck didn't escape paying income tax.

Me neither. Waiting to see the damage now.

[Daniel]

You're Welcome.

Mailed the IRS a 4 figure check on 1 April (Yup Fool's Day) and it was cashed on 6 April.

TBH they are just paying some of the extra 80 I have them take out every two weeks.

[dwcz]

I think the most overlooked/hidden tax is the devaluation of the dollar. The Federal Reserve has printed more money in the last 18 months than in the previous 200 years...

U.S. government debt is increasing faster than the gross domestic product. Every dollar the Fed prints increases national debt. We pay interest on every dollar printed.

Each passing day the dollar is worth less - it costs us more to buy the same thing.

If we paid back our national debt a dollar per second, and started 150 years ago, it would still take over 150,000 years to pay back... And that was before the bailouts and Obama's spending spree.

Read this in an email from Robert Kiyosaki the other day:

Politician: “Step right up here voter. Let me tell you what I’m going to do for you. First you need to lend me a hundred dollars.â€

Voter: “But will I get my money back?"

Politician: “Sure! Lend me a hundred bucks, but only give me fifty now. That way, you’ll owe me fifty bucks, I’ll owe you fifty bucks, and we’ll call it even.â€