First LEO encounter while carrying

[mikegideon]

OK. back to the original thread...

My question is this:

the officer asked you to take your firearm from its holster and hand it to him??

I have a problem with this.

what is the right answer here??

I carry strong side (right).

I have both informed and not, in multiple states, and so far, no problem with either.

When i'm pulled over it is with all the windows down, interior lights on, hands on the wheel. If i inform, i state, "Officer, I am licenced to carry concealed. I am carrying on my right side. What are your instructions." So far, none have required my weapon.

But if one ever does, I would like to know how to safely do this in a way that is completely non-threatening or risks me being shot with my hand on my gun, which by the way, will not look good for me, even if i was doing exactly as i was told.

thoughts??

I would take it out with my weak side hand, with the grip upside down.

[Mark@Sea]

If the only way I could reach it safely were with strong side hand, I'd use two fingers and move slowly. Don't think I could reach it with my off hand and pull without unacceptable risk of nd. Well, if I were carrying a glock or similar. Too many tales of the trigger catching on something.

Safest all around to leave it in the holster, but that's the officers call to make.

[DavidD]

...Since I'm usually in the wrong mostly speeding at least being nice there is a chance of getting out of there with out a ticket the other way you will at least get the speeding ticket and depending he might find other stuff wrong.....It's easier to just get along most of the time.

I'm with the OP 100% on this one, especially the last sentence. So far I am 0 for 5 on getting cited since I've had my permit. I've been pulled over once for expired tags, once for rolling through a stop sign and 3 times for speeding (OK, I have a bit of a lead foot ). I always hand them my HCP, DL, Insurance Card and Registration as well as turn on dome light if it is dark and roll down the back window since it's tinted, even when it was frigid out. I never come right out and say I'm armed since I handed them my permit but answer yes when asked which was over half of the times I was stopped. Call it what you want but I've got to believe it is my show of respect, polite attitude,and possibly even the fact that I have a permit that has at least contributed to the LEO letting me go each time. When pulled over for the 3 month expired tags, the officer even joked that he had one of those too referring to my permit. Time before last I just knew I was going to get cited as the guy came across as a real jerk. I kept my cool and when he came back to the car, he let me go with just a wise crack about slowing my ass down. I have yet to be disarmed.

Edited April 9, 2010 by DavidD
can't spell

[DaveTN]

OK. back to the original thread...

My question is this:

the officer asked you to take your firearm from its holster and hand it to him??

I have a problem with this.

what is the right answer here??

I carry strong side (right).

I have both informed and not, in multiple states, and so far, no problem with either.

When i'm pulled over it is with all the windows down, interior lights on, hands on the wheel. If i inform, i state, "Officer, I am licenced to carry concealed. I am carrying on my right side. What are your instructions." So far, none have required my weapon.

But if one ever does, I would like to know how to safely do this in a way that is completely non-threatening or risks me being shot with my hand on my gun, which by the way, will not look good for me, even if i was doing exactly as i was told.

thoughts??

Follow his instructions. If he wants to disarm you he will give you instructions on how it is going to happen.

[Guest Jamie]

The part I don't understand here is this: If you can avoid any chance at the whole gravel-eating, ass-whuppin', jail cell sitting scenario, simply by informing the officer that you have a permit and a gun... even though the law doesn't require it... and complying with his/her requests/orders if they choose to legally disarm you.... why not do it?

Also, think about this too, for a second: If a cop stops you in the first place, you're probably already in trouble. Probably just minor trouble, at most.

Why make it MAJOR trouble? Does your ego really just require you to experience a felony take-down once in your life, before you die? Mine sure don't.

The OP apparently didn't feel the need either, did what was needed to avoid it, and even got out of that minor bit of trouble.

Seems like everybody won on that one; no gravel tasting, no skinned-up head, elbows etc., and no extra paperwork.

J.

[Guest Jamie]

If your chosen response to seeing a holstered weapon on someone who presents no other indicator of criminal activity (except, perhaps a mundane traffic violation) is to prone them out, feed them some gravel - you probably need a vacation. You've become part of the problem.

And it can probably be argued that if your choice is to not avoid all that by informing the officer as soon as possible that you have a permit and gun... then maybe you shouldn't have either.

Answer me this: Can anybody read this story and not see where informing the officer right up front that you're armed is not a good idea? Or understand why an undeclared weapon on a person during a traffic stop causes such an unpleasant reaction in most LEOs?

And that story is only one of many...

J.

[mikegideon]

And it can probably be argued that if your choice is to not avoid all that by informing the officer as soon as possible that you have a permit and gun... then maybe you shouldn't have either.

Answer me this: Can anybody read this story and not see where informing the officer right up front that you're armed is not a good idea? Or understand why an undeclared weapon on a person during a traffic stop causes such an unpleasant reaction in most LEOs?

And that story is only one of many...

J.

Mark is an old friend, and one of the best guys I know. I haven't seen him since the shooting, but thought about him several times during this thread. I've wondered if his laid back demeanor has changed.

[Guest Jamie]

Mark is an old friend, and one of the best guys I know. I haven't seen him since the shooting, but thought about him several times during this thread. I've wondered if his laid back demeanor has changed.

Unfortunately, I'm sure a lot of things have changed for him, and that what happened will effect him for the rest of his life, both physically and mentally.

I don't know the guy, but have wondered how he's doing, and hope he's doing well.

J.

[E4 No More]

And it can probably be argued that if your choice is to not avoid all that by informing the officer as soon as possible that you have a permit and gun... then maybe you shouldn't have either.

Answer me this: Can anybody read this story and not see where informing the officer right up front that you're armed is not a good idea? Or understand why an undeclared weapon on a person during a traffic stop causes such an unpleasant reaction in most LEOs?

And that story is only one of many...

J.

Back in the day, traffic stops were by far the most deadly activity for a LEO. I doubt that's changed in the 17 years since I left the department. That's why I feel it's moronic to not notify the officer.

[Guest Jamie]

Back in the day, traffic stops were by far the most deadly activity for a LEO. I doubt that's changed in the 17 years since I left the department. That's why I feel it's moronic to not notify the officer.

Traffic stops and Domestic Disturbances, yep.

And I won't say it's moronic not to inform, only that a person needs to be prepared to take the possible consequences without bitching about it.

J.

[DaveTN]

We have all given our advice based on our experience countless times on this issue. It will always be the same. We are on a gun forum. There are those that will somehow see notifying the officer as a violation of their rights, there are those that will see an Officer disarming them as a violation of their rights. It doesn’t matter that the state doesn’t recognize the rights they are referring to. It also doesn’t matter to them that the Officer puts his life above any perceived right they think they may have (and that they would do exactly the same as would any reasonable person). That Officer will simply be labeled a rogue cop and needs to be fired.

Tennessee law doesn’t require notification and that’s that. Tennessee law also makes no special conditions for how or when a person carrying a gun is disarmed. Permit or not it’s the Officers discretion.

I am a former cop and I will notify for three very simple reasons.

1. Respect. I will be respectful of any Officer that stops me and I expect the same from him.

2. Making conversation about the permit or guns might get me out of a ticket.

3. I have been there, done that, got the T-shirt, and have firsthand knowledge of how to survive a traffic stop without a lot of drama….. Or how to get lock up and throw in jail. Depending on the mood I am in at the time.

The driver has just as much input on how a traffic stop will end as the Officer does.

[Guest Glock23ForMe]

We have all given our advice based on our experience countless times on this issue. It will always be the same. We are on a gun forum. There are those that will somehow see notifying the officer as a violation of their rights, there are those that will see an Officer disarming them as a violation of their rights. It doesn’t matter that the state doesn’t recognize the rights they are referring to. It also doesn’t matter to them that the Officer puts his life above any perceived right they think they may have (and that they would do exactly the same as would any reasonable person). That Officer will simply be labeled a rogue cop and needs to be fired.

Tennessee law doesn’t require notification and that’s that. Tennessee law also makes no special conditions for how or when a person carrying a gun is disarmed. Permit or not it’s the Officers discretion.

I am a former cop and I will notify for three very simple reasons.

1. Respect. I will be respectful of any Officer that stops me and I expect the same from him.

2. Making conversation about the permit or guns might get me out of a ticket.

3. I have been there, done that, got the T-shirt, and have firsthand knowledge of how to survive a traffic stop without a lot of drama….. Or how to get lock up and throw in jail. Depending on the mood I am in at the time.

The driver has just as much input on how a traffic stop will end as the Officer does.

+1(000)

Haven't gotten my permit in the mail, but I already know what I'm going to do if (and when) I get pulled over again. Hand over the Permit and the DL. I mean, IMO it seems senseless not to. I've read hundreds of posts across many forums on this same topic, and it just seems that it is too high of a chance to get "fed some gravel" whenever you, as the driver, have the "gravel feeding button" in your wallet, just hand it over, if he takes off and runs away with it... its on his cruiser camera. My ex-girlfriend's dad was a police officer and he gave me a greater respect for them. These guys (and girls) put their lives on the line on a DAILY BASIS to protect us from the criminals that see us as a target, grant it, we have gone through the legal channels to protect ourselves, but they don't know it. If everyone had to get a stamp on their forehead that said "Convicted Gun Criminal" or "Just going to Church", this wouldn't be a problem, as long as it was accurate. But I see no infringement of rights in my opinion that extending a courtesy to an unknowing officer that you have a loaded firearm in your car, and it's there legally. Unless you like the taste of pavement and gravel (tasted it once, enough for me), then there's no reason not to give it up for five minutes.... Not to mention, it could get you out of a ticket.. And thanks to all the officers who put their lives on the line daily, we do appreciate it but we can never say thanks enough.

[Currently]

If given a lawful order ...

You refuse and end up on the ground eating gravel, your troubles are just starting.

While sitting in a cell dazed and confused thoroughly convinced on how right your were, make sure you call a very good attorney.

By the time the dust settles and you fight the charges in a court of law, (where the fight should of started instead of the side of the road), prepare yourself for huge legal fees, confiscation of the permit you are so proud of and a criminal record. If indeed a felony, possession of firearms for life.

Just so you wanted to prove you resisted what you thought was an unlawful order?

Go ahead and go down swinging, the only person you are impressing is yourself.

The first order of business for every cop making a stop is to control the scene.

They are trained to do that with many techniques. These techniques are derived from mistakes made by other cops in the past getting killed or maimed.

Being a cop is not a job I want. However, it is my job to not escalate any interaction that may occur. It is the only control that I have over the situation. If I give that away by making a stupid decision, then why should I cry about having a torn rotator cuff because 3 cops kneed me in the back, cuffing me trying to 'control' a situation that I escalated?

The cop has all the power and control at the roadside. If you will not give it to them, they will take it by force.

Unfortunately, if I want power and control at the courthouse, I have to pay dearly for it. If the cop really screwed up, where will it be won? Not on the road side.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Currently

[Mark@Sea]

And it can probably be argued that if your choice is to not avoid all that by informing the officer as soon as possible that you have a permit and gun... then maybe you shouldn't have either.

If you are unhappy with the law, perhaps finding a jurisdiction that agrees with your preferences would be a better choice than enforcing what you think should be law. Sooner or later that approach will bite you.

[Guest Jamie]

If you are unhappy with the law, perhaps finding a jurisdiction that agrees with your preferences would be a better choice than enforcing what you think should be law. Sooner or later that approach will bite you.

Where did I say anything about being unhappy with the law?

I simply offered up the other side of the argument in your "food for thought".

Oh, and I don't do any enforcing of any laws/rules anymore, except the ones right here in my own home.

Also, I don't really think there needs to be a law requiring one do what "*common sense" should dictate be done anyway.

( Maybe Good Sense would be the better term to use here. )

Besides, first-hand experience will be a much better teacher than any law could ever hope to be.

J.

* That term should probably be changed to Uncommon Sense, I guess, due to that apparently being the more accurate description. :-\

Edited April 11, 2010 by Jamie

[Guest SUNTZU]

I don't give a damn if an officer had a bad day, I don't need to be worried about an officer's feelings or how much pressure they've been under. If an officer is too hyped up because of high stress incidents then its probably time for a vacation. I do not have to inform an officer I have a firearm unless they ask. Dragging me out of the car and making me "eat gravel" is the just thing to do. Really?

Oh, and here's an article for you that is a big reason why some have trouble trusting officers.

Third Ex Officer Pleads Guilty in Katrina Probe

I guess its an issue of trust. I think there may be a few good apples out there. I'm tired of being viewed as a criminal. I don't care if you had a bad day. Go get a job flipping burgers if the stress is too much for you to be a cop. Tell your police chiefs to support gun ownership and HCP's for people. If you and your department feel that way...I applaud you. I applaud the officer and firefighter who jumped into a frozen lake to rescue an elderly couple not too long ago.

Just Part of the Job

I don't applaud Billy Badass cops who use excessive force when I've done nothing to instigate it.

I really don't care about telling an officer I have an HCP. But in THIS scenario, if I happened to not tell them...maybe I had a bad day (which, apparently, can't be NEARLY as stressful as a police officer's day) and I didn't do it...but no worries, because I DON'T HAVE TO, so I did nothing wrong...til I "find out that gravel tastes like ."

I like this article, especially as a law abiding person who doesn't liked being talked to like a child or a dog.

7 Things Cops Should Never Say To Anyone

I know the job is stressful, and I know you have a burden of responsibility, but I expect civility when dealing with a police officer. It works both ways, ladies and gentlemen.

[Guest Jamie]

I don't give a damn if an officer had a bad day, I don't need to be worried about an officer's feelings or how much pressure they've been under.

Nope, you just need to worry about them shooting you or dislocating your shoulder - or worse - because of your own actions.

But all of that's already been covered. Folks can either decide to take some personal responsibility or not; that's up to them.

Carrying on about rights you may or may not even have is pointless, especially since it won't have much effect on the outcome of the situation we've been discussing. Only your own actions will.

Y'all have fun.

J.

[DaveTN]

I don't give a damn if an officer had a bad day, I don't need to be worried about an officer's feelings or how much pressure they've been under. If an officer is too hyped up because of high stress incidents then its probably time for a vacation. I do not have to inform an officer I have a firearm unless they ask. Dragging me out of the car and making me "eat gravel" is the just thing to do. Really?

Oh, and here's an article for you that is a big reason why some have trouble trusting officers.

Third Ex Officer Pleads Guilty in Katrina Probe

I guess its an issue of trust. I think there may be a few good apples out there. I'm tired of being viewed as a criminal. I don't care if you had a bad day. Go get a job flipping burgers if the stress is too much for you to be a cop. Tell your police chiefs to support gun ownership and HCP's for people. If you and your department feel that way...I applaud you. I applaud the officer and firefighter who jumped into a frozen lake to rescue an elderly couple not too long ago.

Just Part of the Job

I don't applaud Billy Badass cops who use excessive force when I've done nothing to instigate it.

I really don't care about telling an officer I have an HCP. But in THIS scenario, if I happened to not tell them...maybe I had a bad day (which, apparently, can't be NEARLY as stressful as a police officer's day) and I didn't do it...but no worries, because I DON'T HAVE TO, so I did nothing wrong...til I "find out that gravel tastes like ."

I like this article, especially as a law abiding person who doesn't liked being talked to like a child or a dog.

7 Things Cops Should Never Say To Anyone

I know the job is stressful, and I know you have a burden of responsibility, but I expect civility when dealing with a police officer. It works both ways, ladies and gentlemen.

Your Doctor can kill you if he has a bad day or is not focused while he is operating on you.

Another driver can kill you because they are having a bad day…. Or simply think its okay to have a cell phone chat while driving.

The world is a dangerous place.

How a cop’s day is going shouldn’t impact your life, but sorry… they are people and it might.

But you do have recourse. If you are an HCP holder and a cop puts you on the ground or makes you eat gravel for no reason at all; there is something you can do about it. Police Command Officers and administrators are not limited by state law on what is allowed and what is not. An Officer can be disciplined or even fired for being too aggressive or being disrespectful to citizens.

[Guest SUNTZU]

Nope, you just need to worry about them shooting you or dislocating your shoulder - or worse - because of your own actions.

But all of that's already been covered. Folks can either decide to take some personal responsibility or not; that's up to them.

Carrying on about rights you may or may not even have is pointless, especially since it won't have much effect on the outcome of the situation we've been discussing. Only your own actions will.

Y'all have fun.

J.

Very good work on the Progressive twisting of what I posted, Jamie. Maybe you can go back and read my post in its entirety. Funny, can I use that defense for shooting someone as an HCP holder? As for the personal responsibility, I agree, officers SHOULD seek help on their own when they are stressed out. The attitude you are defending is part of the problem, Jamie.

[Guest Jamie]

Maybe you can go back and read my post in its entirety.

I've read not only everything you wrote, but what everyone else here has written as well.

The part you seem to be missing is that it's not just the "Billy Badass" cops that are going to react the way I and others have described, when it comes to them discovering a previously-undisclosed weapon. Especially if that gun is on or near a person who's exhibiting a surly or combative attitude. ( And add to this the fact they haven't gotten the chance to run your license number, and see if you have a permit, and no outstanding warrants, etc. )

It's part of all LEO's training: Get the situation and individual under control, THEN sort out the legal aspects of it. ( The gun )

Also remember that the "excessive force" that you mention isn't something that will be determined by you, or any other individual in that situation.

You might think the force used was excessive, but the CLEO, judge, court, or anybody else that is required to evaluate what happened may very well not, especially if it's part of the approved department policy.

And no, I'm not arguing whether that's right, wrong, or indifferent. I'm simply aware of the fact that it's the reality of dealing with a LEO. Any LEO.

J.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Jamie

[Currently]

I played a lot of chess when I was a kid.

Learned a lot about strategies that I applied later in real life situations.

The opening you use determines what the end game can be like.

Aggressive moves early on are easily leveraged into traps.

Unlike chess however, the ultimate goal in social interaction is a win-win conclusion.

Both parties have gained their objectives and leave to carry on the rest of their day.

Seeking a win-lose situation in your favor at the roadside is an exercise in futility.

I believe someone here had a sig that said, "Beware the fury of a patient man."

That has quite a bit of significance to this thread.

It is just as easy for the law abiding citizen to set up a trap for an unprofessional LEO as it is for them to record everything that is said and done during a stop.

The majority of cell phones now have recording devices in them that can be activated at a push of a button. In the hands of a good attorney, you do have recourse if it gets that far.

I have always treated LEO's with respect, even if they did not deserve it at the time. It has happened. I had one caught red-handed in a lie he could not support with the evidence. I went to his superior and calmly laid all the facts and evidence down and the ticket was thrown out ... did not even have to go to court. It took all of twenty minutes and I left getting what I sought.

The only thing that being an a-hole at the roadside will get you is, "officer needs help" on the radio. I don't believe I have ever heard anyone but a cop win that scenario.

[Guest Caveman]

I don't give a damn if an officer had a bad day, I don't need to be worried about an officer's feelings or how much pressure they've been under. If an officer is too hyped up because of high stress incidents then its probably time for a vacation. I do not have to inform an officer I have a firearm unless they ask. Dragging me out of the car and making me "eat gravel" is the just thing to do. Really?

Oh, and here's an article for you that is a big reason why some have trouble trusting officers.

Third Ex Officer Pleads Guilty in Katrina Probe

I guess its an issue of trust. I think there may be a few good apples out there. I'm tired of being viewed as a criminal. I don't care if you had a bad day. Go get a job flipping burgers if the stress is too much for you to be a cop. Tell your police chiefs to support gun ownership and HCP's for people. If you and your department feel that way...I applaud you. I applaud the officer and firefighter who jumped into a frozen lake to rescue an elderly couple not too long ago.

Just Part of the Job

I don't applaud Billy Badass cops who use excessive force when I've done nothing to instigate it.

I really don't care about telling an officer I have an HCP. But in THIS scenario, if I happened to not tell them...maybe I had a bad day (which, apparently, can't be NEARLY as stressful as a police officer's day) and I didn't do it...but no worries, because I DON'T HAVE TO, so I did nothing wrong...til I "find out that gravel tastes like ."

I like this article, especially as a law abiding person who doesn't liked being talked to like a child or a dog.

7 Things Cops Should Never Say To Anyone

I know the job is stressful, and I know you have a burden of responsibility, but I expect civility when dealing with a police officer. It works both ways, ladies and gentlemen.

I scanned the internet for stories around the US of cops hurting or killing innocent people because of bad info, being drunk on the job, being high on the job, having the "I am god" complex and many other reasons. For every story they produce about cops being killed on the job I can produce 5 stories about cops hurting or killing innocent people. The ideology that cops have the right to do any f@cking thing they want no matter what you have done, or not done, is disturbing. And all the people that sit here and say "take it to court" need to try it sometime. The tapes of the stop will be "lost" or the camera "wasn't on" and it will come down to your word against theirs and they will prevail. Like I said, they protect their own no matter what the circumstances. The judicial system is just as corrupt as the cops themselves in these stories and there is no justice for us civilians. Cops, lawyers and Da's all drink together and decide our fate behind closed doors. If anyone doesn't believe me, go to Roosters sometime.

[Guest Jamie]

The ideology that cops have the right to do any f@cking thing they want no matter what you have done, or not done, is disturbing.

Do keep in mind that the things we're talking about here are things LEOs have a legal right to do; disarm you if they feel the need, and to put a person who has a gun that they don't know is legal on the ground, especially if that person "bows up" or becomes argumentative or combative.

I don't think anybody here has suggested or expected that anyone would or should be treated that way if they inform the officer of the fact they have a permit, and are cooperative with what the officer tells them needs to happen.

I certainly don't think anyone has said the "cops can do any damn thing they please".

( I know I certainly couldn't when I was one. Maybe I was just with the wrong department? )

However, if that were true, and most LEOs acted that way - and the judges protected them - why would a person want to go stupid on the side of the road and make the situation worse? It's not like you have any hope of getting away with it, is there?

J.

P.S. Caveman - Have you had a lot of bad experiences with the police or something?

[Guest sandmanfvr]

I have read most if not all if this long topic and most is silly. Legally nobody has to answer any questions or allow their car to be searched in a police stop without a warrant. That is LAW not opinions or whatnot. There is no law that says I nor anybody else must disclose our permits or whereabouts of our firearms. No opinions on that one just facts. So why the argument? I will not disclose my permit or firearm unless asked. It is not the business of the LEO I have one if he/she is stopping me for something due to traffic violation. So what my permit shows up running my DL? If I am being stopped for speeding or something what does that matter? "Oh the poor LEO needs to know to feel safe!". Bullspit. Many LEOs need remember to get a HGP you are checked thoroughly and to KEEP one you are a law abiding citizen that stays out of trouble. So back to my speeding ticket example. I speed and i am caught. Ok I show my drivers license and my insurance to the LEO and I am vey polite. I always admit why I was pulled over, lying never helps. The LEO runs my DL and sees my permit. If he/she gets bent out of shape then they are out of line and need to calm down. For a stop on speeding they don't need my permit and just because I do have a permit and gun I am not evil or out to get them. If they asked why I didn't show it to them I would tell them politely i didn't think they needed it and have nothing to hide. To many LEOs treat traffic stops like a parole hearing.

[Guest walkingdeadman]

My question is, what if you lied and told him you didn't have a gun? Most of the time when I am in my vehicle. I have my carry pistol and my truck gun. If he does disarm me, I won't be giving him both pistols. There will never ever be any possible reason that a cop would need to search my truck, so I wouldn't worry about them coming across my other gun.

Also, I don't think it is any of the cops business to know that I have a permit and have a gun on me. Even if he does go back to his car to check my info and finds that I have a HCP, I am going to make him ask for it. Just my opinion and I am sure that some will disagree.

Edited April 12, 2010 by walkingdeadman
More to write about.