First LEO encounter while carrying

[Guest Caveman]

Are you saying that if one does not inform a LEO they are carrying a pistol with a HCP, which is not required under the law in Tennessee, then the LEO is going to slam them down on the ground to take their pistol when said LEO discovers they have a weapon?

Is this the tactic/attitude of other LEO's on this forum?

+1

[PC7]

If a LEO disarms a legally carrying HCP and damages their pistol, is the department going to fix the weapon to ones satisfaction? Are LEO's trained on the manual of arms of all pistols? I would guess not, so it seems a hazard to both parties to have someone not familiar with a weapon to manipulate it.

[Erik88]

If a LEO disarms a legally carrying HCP and damages their pistol, is the department going to fix the weapon to ones satisfaction? Are LEO's trained on the manual of arms of all pistols? I would guess not, so it seems a hazard to both parties to have someone not familiar with a weapon to manipulate it.

Thats a very good question, I've often wondered what would happen if a police dog scratched vehicle while searching for drugs. I've seen several instances on tv where the dog claws the crap out of a car looking for drugs, only to come up empty handed. I would be pissed!

[E4 No More]

Are you saying that if one does not inform a LEO they are carrying a pistol with a HCP, which is not required under the law in Tennessee, then the LEO is going to slam them down on the ground to take their pistol when said LEO discovers they have a weapon?

Is this the tactic/attitude of other LEO's on this forum?

In my case it's former LEO.

I'm not saying that's what will happen; I'm saying that it can happen. Police aren't trained to wait for you to draw and fire before they act. If I suddenly saw a gun when I do not know you are a lawful carrier I will assume the worst until proven otherwise. You will at least be having my gun stuck in your face until I determine you are a lawful carrier, and I don't care what anyone thinks about it, and neither would my Chief of Police.

[Guest Caveman]

Thats a very good question, I've often wondered what would happen if a police dog scratched vehicle while searching for drugs. I've seen several instances on tv where the dog claws the crap out of a car looking for drugs, only to come up empty handed. I would be pissed!

Nothing happens, you get screwed. What lawyer worth a darn is going to take a case suing the city or county over scratched paint or a scratched face. Even if they did you would have to have a $20,000 retainer for them to do it. But apparently, according to some, we should just grin and bear like the rest of the sheeple.

[Guest Caveman]

In my case it's former LEO.

I'm not saying that's what will happen; I'm saying that it can happen. Police aren't trained to wait for you to draw and fire before they act. If I suddenly saw a gun when I do not know you are a lawful carrier I will assume the worst until proven otherwise. You will at least be having my gun stuck in your face until I determine you are a lawful carrier, and I don't care what anyone thinks about it, and neither would my Chief of Police.

I guess it's a good thing you are not a LEO anymore.

BTW the terminology you used was "most certainly" when referring to us not liking how they will disarm us.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Caveman

[Guest SUNTZU]

In my case it's former LEO.

I'm not saying that's what will happen; I'm saying that it can happen. Police aren't trained to wait for you to draw and fire before they act. If I suddenly saw a gun when I do not know you are a lawful carrier I will assume the worst until proven otherwise. You will at least be having my gun stuck in your face until I determine you are a lawful carrier, and I don't care what anyone thinks about it, and neither would my Chief of Police.

Knoxville's Chief of Police had to provide a written apology and new training for the officers last time this happened.

[E4 No More]

I guess it's a good thing you are not a LEO anymore.

BTW the terminology you used was "most certainly" when referring to us not liking how they will disarm us.

Are you saying that you like having guns drawn on you?

[E4 No More]

Knoxville's Chief of Police had to provide a written apology and new training for the officers last time this happened.

Don't you guys complain about him?

EDIT: I didn't work for Knoxville nor a department in this state. To give you an idea of how my chief thought, the first class I attended was an officer survival class called Red Gun.

Edited April 7, 2010 by SWJewellTN

[Guest SUNTZU]

Don't you guys complain about him?

And that has what, exactly, to do with you willing to slam my face into the dirt?

[Guest Caveman]

Are you saying that you like having guns drawn on you?

Wow, really? You said we will "most certainly" not like how they disarm us, and then implied we would be slammmed to the ground. You then turned around and said "I'm not saying that's what will happen; I'm saying that it can happen." Are you following me here? You originally claimed it was almost a certainty that we would be slammed, then turned around and back peddled.

Let me fix this for you: I'm not saying that's what will most certainly happen; I'm saying that it can happen."

You're on a roll man, keep going...

Edited April 7, 2010 by Caveman

[Guest Caveman]

And that has what, exactly, to do with you willing to slam my face into the dirt?

I think he is referring to when you screwed the chief's daughter. Makes about as much sense to me.

[E4 No More]

Wow, really? You said we will "most certainly" not like how they disarm us, and then implied we would be slammmed to the ground. You then turned around and said "I'm not saying that's what will happen; I'm saying that it can happen." Are you following me here? You originally claimed it was almost a certainty that we would be slammed, then turned around and back peddled.

Let me fix this for you: I'm not saying that's what will most certainly happen; I'm saying that it can happen."

You're on a roll man, keep going...

Okay, I'll write it for the challenged: You will most certainly not like how you are disarmed with actions ranging from having a gun stuck in your face up to and including lying face down in the dirt, grass, gravel, or whatever surface is available.

Does that help you?

[Guest Caveman]

Okay, I'll write it for the challenged: You will most certainly not like how you are disarmed with actions ranging from having a gun stuck in your face up to and including lying face down in the dirt, grass, gravel, or whatever surface is available.

Does that help you?

Yes it does help, it helps me realize that on top of your back peddling you are dense as well and I am waisting my time arguing with you.

[E4 No More]

I think he is referring to when you screwed the chief's daughter. Makes about as much sense to me.

Again, for the challenged: He used the example of Chief of Police for Knoxville writing a letter of apology to make a lame point that I was wrong when said chief has been complained about for being a crappy chief. So the actions of a crappy chief proves a point? Not!

[E4 No More]

Yes it does help, it helps me realize that on top of your back peddling you are dense as well and I am waisting my time arguing with you.

Again with the keyboard commando?

[Guest Caveman]

Again with the keyboard commando?

I'll give you that one, that was funny.

[mikegideon]

Guys, this scenario was played out in that crappy state video we all had to watch. If a cop just stumbles onto a weapon, they are going to go into disarming mode, and rightfully so. That's why I'll always inform them first. Has nothing to do with what's required.

I strongly disagree with unnecessary force, but... Years ago, I was stopped in Houston by a cop that had been shot at twice that day. He was extremely paranoid, and plumb full of adrenalin. Turned out, he was a nice guy and a good cop. But, if I would have pushed his buttons, I would have tasted the sidewalk and wouldn't blamed him for it. I'm not taking up for cops that step over the line. Just sayin', you don't know their current state of mind, and they don't know yours.

[E4 No More]

Look, ya'll need to consider the fact that I was a policeman nearly two decades ago in another state where there was no HCP at all unless you were politically connected. If you had a permit it was incumbent upon the carrier upon contact with an officer to immediately inform the officer that they were lawfully carrying. Without notification you were assumed to be unlawful until proven otherwise. Me? I would have drawn my weapon at the individual, ordered them out of the car, and make them assume the prone position on the ground until I disarmed them. If they failed to comply I would force them to...period! If they made any movement towards the weapon I would fire.

I don't know what things have changed since then, but I doubt officer survival tactics have been proscribed to spare your feelings as to what you think is right. Have you not heard that you'll win no battles on the side of a road? If you want to do something stupid then be prepared to suffer the consequences for it.

[Guest SUNTZU]

Again, for the challenged: He used the example of Chief of Police for Knoxville writing a letter of apology to make a lame point that I was wrong when said chief has been complained about for being a crappy chief. So the actions of a crappy chief proves a point? Not!

No, the man in charge of the cop had to apologize for the wrongdoing. I'd be charged with assault. The cop got to go to class. Please stop trying to dance around it like a Progressive. Unless you ask for my HCP or if I have any weapons on me, you would be in the wrong. I can see the reasoning behind WHY you would want to protect yourself, but that doesn't mean that it would be right. Big difference between a criminal going for his gun and a citizen politely responding to a peace officer...excuse me...law enforcement officer.

"Gravel tastes like ." Why would anyone be upset with that attitude?

"Do you have a permit for that holstered firearm, sir?" "Why yes, I do. Do you want to get my wallet or should I?"

That's not possible in your Macho Man Randy Savage look on the world, apparently. That was for the challenged, by the way.

[E4 No More]

No, the man in charge of the cop had to apologize for the wrongdoing. I'd be charged with assault. The cop got to go to class. Please stop trying to dance around it like a Progressive. Unless you ask for my HCP or if I have any weapons on me, you would be in the wrong. I can see the reasoning behind WHY you would want to protect yourself, but that doesn't mean that it would be right. Big difference between a criminal going for his gun and a citizen politely responding to a peace officer...excuse me...law enforcement officer.

"Gravel tastes like ." Why would anyone be upset with that attitude?

"Do you have a permit for that holstered firearm, sir?" "Why yes, I do. Do you want to get my wallet or should I?"

That's not possible in your Macho Man Randy Savage look on the world, apparently. That was for the challenged, by the way.

Well, good luck with that.

[Guest Caveman]

No, the man in charge of the cop had to apologize for the wrongdoing. I'd be charged with assault. The cop got to go to class. Please stop trying to dance around it like a Progressive. Unless you ask for my HCP or if I have any weapons on me, you would be in the wrong. I can see the reasoning behind WHY you would want to protect yourself, but that doesn't mean that it would be right. Big difference between a criminal going for his gun and a citizen politely responding to a peace officer...excuse me...law enforcement officer.

"Gravel tastes like ." Why would anyone be upset with that attitude?

"Do you have a permit for that holstered firearm, sir?" "Why yes, I do. Do you want to get my wallet or should I?"

That's not possible in your Macho Man Randy Savage look on the world, apparently. That was for the challenged, by the way.

Like I said, I'm just glad he isn't a cop anymore. One less cop with his mentality to deal with.

[PC7]

Mike brings up an interesting point. Does prior trauma justify a LEO use of what some would consider excessive force? If so, soldiers are shot at daily in Iraq and Afghanistan, does that justify them to use excessive force on the citizens of those nations? I think not, based on recent military justice proceedings.

Also, for those out there that think it is justified to slam armed law-abiding citizens to the ground, let me ask you this. If a state of martial law was declared, would it be OK for soldiers to slam armed LEO's to the ground until they made sure they weren't a threat? Why not? What would be the difference?

[mikegideon]

Mike brings up an interesting point. Does prior trauma justify a LEO use of what some would consider excessive force? If so, soldiers are shot at daily in Iraq and Afghanistan, does that justify them to use excessive force on the citizens of those nations? I think not, based on recent military justice proceedings.

Also, for those out there that think it is justified to slam armed law-abiding citizens to the ground, let me ask you this. If a state of martial law was declared, would it be OK for soldiers to slam armed LEO's to the ground until they made sure they weren't a threat? Why not? What would be the difference?

Hold the phone. I made it a point to say that I disagree with excessive force. Just saying that we can encounter LEO's that are on the edge of going into defensive mode, and it's only smart to be sensitive of that.

EDIT: The whole point is that they don't necessarily know that you're a law abiding citizen at the time.

Edited April 7, 2010 by mikegideon
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[inspecting1]

How did he go about getting your gun? Did he make you get out of the car while he retrieved it? Surely he didn't have you hand it to him. That seems more dangerous than just telling you not to touch the gun.

Glenn

I leaned forward in the truck seat carrying in a Crossbreed super tuck right side 4-5 o'clock and he pulled it out.

He did not unload the mag just removed the mag from the gun