Is the cost of the TN HCP equal to a de facto ban on poor people?

[TMMT]

Is the cost of the TN HCP equal to a de facto ban on poor people?

I've asked this question before in response to another posters thread with no real answer, so I'm asking again.

Is it?

The state charges you $115 to apply. To apply you must complete a gun safety course that will run you anywhere from $75 up to $125 depending on where you take it.

Some of you might miss a day from work, taking it off to attend the class.

All of this adds up to very real money for the working poor, arguably those who could benefit more from a CCW than someone who lives in an uppity Bell Meade hood...

I just watched an interesting show on, of all things the Green Channel. I know its an enviro-wack-job channel but every once in a while they do have on an interesting show.

This one was called 30 Days and it was about a guy and girl who had to live for 30 days on minimum wage in Cleveland Ohio. They went into some detail on budgetary details. They lived in a very low rent apartment, as well as the need to exploit the missions who give away stuff like free dishes and furniture.

But back to the money.

Someone living like this can in no real way afford to miss a days work much less come up with $200 on average to get the permit.

Lets say you are in their shoes, your married, no children. You live in Memphis, in a questionable area. You work as a handyman doing odd jobs while your wife is a server at a restaurant.

But you have a .38 revolver your granddad gave to you years a go, you hang onto for protection and sentimental reasons.

The show, showed you in detail how living on minimum wage even two folks working sometimes two jobs will barely pay for you to eat and survive.

So with the state charging you a $115 fee the requiring you to spend around another $100 just to be "legal", how is this not a de facto ban that affects the poor, those who would most benefit from owning and carrying a gun?

[Bulldog44]

I completely agree with everthing you said in this post.I have always felt the fees associated with obtaining HCP exclude many who cannot afford it.Since the State of Tennesse considers being an armed citizen a privilige instead of of right thats the way it will be

Bulldog44

[Guest bkelm18]

You can set aside money. It may take several months but you can save up $200. I don't live on minimum wage but pretty damn close. If I can do it, I'm sure just about anyone else can. On the same token, if they can't afford a permit, how are they going to afford a gun? Are gun prices a de facto ban on gun ownership to poor people? It's that crazy gov't. Always out to get ya.

[TMMT]

You can set aside money. It may take several months but you can save up $200. I don't live on minimum wage but pretty damn close. If I can do it, I'm sure just about anyone else can. On the same token, if they can't afford a permit, how are they going to afford a gun? Are gun prices a de facto ban on gun ownership to poor people? It's that crazy gov't. Always out to get ya.

Good point, but don't you think that $200 would be better spent paying on a handgun you have on lay away at a pawn shop or gun store somewhere, instead of in the pockets of the all might government, who must "bless" us, after we pay homage to them in the form of yet another fee before we can exercise our rights?

This coming from the guy with,

The United States Constitution ©1791. All Rights Reserved.

In his signature line...

[tntnixon]

I absolutely agree with this sentiment. Although I've been very blessed financially, I don't agree that one should have to pay a "poll tax" in order to exercise one's Constitutional rights.

I don't have to pay the government to vote, write a newspaper article, speak in public or pray, but I've got to pay them for the right to keep and bear arms. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

[daddyo]

So much for the politicians "caring" about the poor....

[Mike.357]

I am not so sure that this tax intentionally is aimed at keeping poor people from carrying legally but it has that effect.

[ShamGlock]

Seems to me if it weren't there would be a hardship provision. Just like there is with the emissions tests in Hamilton County.

[billkill]

All good points above...However a right that is earned instead of given(this is not in any way meant to slam those who have paid the the ultimate sacrifice) is much more precious. Or as my dad would say "If it was easy everyone would do it."

[sigmtnman]

All good points above...However a right that is earned instead of given(this is not in any way meant to slam those who have paid the the ultimate sacrifice) is much more precious. Or as my dad would say "If it was easy everyone would do it."

Paying money for a tax, to allow you to do something, is not "earning" a right.

[Kelemvor]

It is basically a ban, I know I couldn't have afforded one when I first got married. There was no such thing as saving money then, My wife and I were eating spaghetti sauce and kraft singles on top of bread slices and calling it pizza. We couldn't come up with nearly two months of grocery money to pay for a permit for even one of us.

The way I see it, if the government wants to regulate one of our constitutional rights, then they had better find the money in their own budget to pay for all the sh*t we have to go through to gain access to our right, including the class.

[TNFF319]

I think the class should be free. If it is really about safety and not money. The Hunter Safety course is free.

[Guest Glock23ForMe]

I think the class should be free. If it is really about safety and not money. The Hunter Safety course is free.

There are free HCP classes, just very few and far between, a PD in my hometown offers a free HCP every year, just one, but it is free, except for ammo, of course.

On the $115 Fee, $48 of that goes straight to pay for your fingerprints, so, in reality, its only about $67 for your actual permit, but the $48 for the fingerprints has to be done, because they contract it out to crazy ladies with expensive machines.

On the "poor people" statement, not to start a "right v privilege" war, but having a loaded gun in your home for self defense, right, being able to carry it around town inside your shirt without being a criminal, privilege. These are my opinions and I really don't feel like defending them in this person's thread, so, if you have a problem with them, keep it. Sorry, but I don't get on here and flame other peoples opinions, cause one guy sitting behind a CPU isn't gonna change anything for someone else. Honestly, cars are expensive, and grant it, you can't finance a gun, but there are ways, saving so much a week. If it comes down to feeding yourself or buying a HCP, I'd go for feeding yourself, because if you die from starvation, there's not much left to defend. Get a gun to protect your wife, children and yourself, save the money for an HCP Permit and all associated with it (Holsters, Mags, Defensive Ammo). I don't believe there is a "Gun Welfare" program just handing out guns to less than financially capable citizens.

[railfancwb]

Are gun prices a de facto ban on gun ownership to poor people?

Efforts to ban "Saturday Night Specials" and inexpensive imported guns have been so described...

[JAB]

I believe that a state fee to obtain a permit to be legal to carry, at all, along with fees to take the required classes do constitute paying a fee to excercise a right. This state and many others regulate the right to self defense as if it were a priviledge. However, regardless of what a bunch of politicians might want us to believe, self defense remains a natural right whether you are in your living room or at Walmart (or just walking out of a restaurant that serves alchohol, for that matter) - and a handgun is one of the best compromises between having a self defense tool and being able to go about your daily business available to people at the current time. How can one have 'life, liberty' and continue to 'pursue happiness' if one cannot defend oneself against deadly intent if the need arises, wherever the need arises? Paying for our fingerprints to be done via a private firm contracting with the state is one thing. Paying the remainder of the fee to the state for a permit - and paying to renew the permit every four years - is quite another.

Personally, I believe a good 'compromise' would be to legalize open carry without any permit required. Perhaps a free (like the Hunter's Safety Course) handgun carry class could be a requirement, just to make sure that folks carrying in public have at least some knowledge/skill/ability with a handgun. In other words, you would get a card upon completion of the free course that would be the only documentation required to legally carry openly. The element of concealment (while my preferred method most of the time) is not necessary to the basic excercise of the fundamental right. Therefore, I do think it could be said that there is a right to carry for self defense but that concealed carry could be considered a priviledge for which a fee, etc. could be assessed. That said, people who go the extra step (and pay the extra money) to obtain such a permit should then have the right to carry anywhere a LEO can legally carry.

Edited April 6, 2010 by JAB

[bockey]

It's scary to even think of the real reasons that our government has behind all it's actions.

Maybe someone could start a program "No Citizen Left Behind" ensuring all citizens of this country have a gun in the house. Wait, what would that cost?

This can't be what they mean by "Freedom isn't Free"

All joking aside, it is a shame to have to pay for our Second Amendment.

[Il Duce]

i dont see it as that. you pay like 30 a year to drive your car legally so thats 120 for four years. its the same amount as the HCP fee that gets renewed every four years and if im not mistaken its only 50 for every four years after that. the only difference is you pay the initial lump sum up front.

[G27]

I am not so sure that this tax intentionally is aimed at keeping poor people from carrying legally but it has that effect.

Agree 100%.

I told my wife after we both went through the courses and paid all the fees that most poor folks we know would have a hard time paying for the privilege of exercising their rights.

I've never seen any numbers, but I'm willing to bet that a vast majority of HCP holders are middle class and above.

[G27]

All good points above...However a right that is earned instead of given

A right is not given or granted.

[JAB]

i dont see it as that. you pay like 30 a year to drive your car legally so thats 120 for four years. its the same amount as the HCP fee that gets renewed every four years and if im not mistaken its only 50 for every four years after that. the only difference is you pay the initial lump sum up front.

There is nothing in the Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution nor in the Tennessee State Constitution that guarantees the right to keep and drive cars. The right to keep and bear arms, however, is covered. Further, there is no natural right to hit the freeway in your automobile. The right to self defense, however, is a different story, IMO. In other words, self defense (and being equipped for same) is a right. Driving a car is a priviledge. By charging a fee to be able to legally carry, at all, the state is basically telling us that the ability to defend our very lives is a priviledge, not a right. That is why I believe that open carry - the basic ability to be equipped for self defense - should be legal with no fees, etc. while (I believe) the ability to legally conceal could be considered a regulated priviledge.

Edited April 6, 2010 by JAB

[Il Duce]

i didnt say i agreed with it i was saying its not a ban for poor people. i was also breaking down the cost to something that most people do pay for and its no more expensive

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Efforts to ban "Saturday Night Specials" and inexpensive imported guns have been so described...

Which is essentially a tax on anyone who desired to buy one.

One is already paying a sales tax when they purchase a gun. Raise the price

by eliminating the Saturday night special and add the sales tax and you

price that right out the window for some. Add the HCP class and permit fee

and you take the threshold further. Another way 'do gooder' politicians

limit rights, in the name of safety. It just encourages illegitimate activity

by a class of people. One's economic status shouldn't assume them to be

criminals, but a lot of our laws do, not necessarily by intent but by their result. All governmental fees are taxes, regardless of what they are for.

[Hgunner]

Tennessee State Constitution

§ 26. Weapons; right to bear arms

That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.

It may seem unfair to the poor, but don't forget we have the richest best off poor in world. They have cars and big screen TV's,

welfare and foodstamps. Saving for a permit and a handgun should not be a issue, but more a matter of priorities.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Hgunner

[G27]

It may seem unfair to the poor, but don't forget we have the riches best off poor in world. They have cars and big screen TV's,

welfare and foodstamps. Saving for a permit and a handgun should not be a issue, but more a matter of priorities.

You sound like someone who's never been poor.

[Hgunner]

You sound like someone who's never been poor.

No, actually been there and done that and have bettered myself.

Others can do it too if they want too. I've lived in the projects when younger, struggled raising a family, just like everybody else. There not anything that was untrue in my statement, sometimes it is simply a matter of what matters to you.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Hgunner