Larry Vickers on the Glock Generation 4

[TGO David]

I love this guy!

Originally Posted by Larry Vickers

I got a Gen 4 17 for my show - here's my take;

1) I like the smaller grip as I have small hands - although not as small as that jabronie in the pic

2)I wish the rough texture was more agressive - it is better than a stock gen 3 but not as much as it could be

3) The mag release is better but rude sharp - somebody at Glock feels that only guns with sharp edges will please the Fuhrer and it shows - I radiused mine immediately

4) The interchangable backstrap system is lame and is dramatically inferior to the S&W M&P or Hk P30/P2000/HK45 series - poor effort

5) The big question is will the recoil spring setup help the 40 and hurt the 9mm in terms of functional reliability- verdict is still out on that but my gut feeling is depending on ammo used the answer will be yes

6) The trigger on mine is dramatically heavier than a gen 3 G17 - noticed it right away

Overall i give the gun a C minus - If i had to choose I would pick a gen 3 with some tweaks anyday over the gen 4

my .02 cents

cheers

LAV

[Warbird]

I love this guy!

[/i]

Well he would say the backstraps are inferior to the HK45 series as he helped design them. By the way my two main carry guns; Glock 23, HK45C.

I agree that the grip is better, but not vastly so. I still prefer my Robar and Bowie grip reduced gen 3's. For me they are about as good as it gets. It makes all of the difference. I literally went from not really liking my Glocks to liking the heck out of them.

He is right about the mag release button, they are especially brutal for a lefty like me. Radiusing is must. It still would have been nice to have a release which could be interchanged to work from either side. But lefty's learn to live with these things.

I wish Glock had left the 9 alone and worked on bettering the 40. They seem obstinate in having one spring answer for both calibers. The 19 is about the most dependable firearm built, the 23 has had its issues primarily when a light is attached.

Triggers I could care less about, I have all of mine changed anyway. So for nearly everything a stock trigger is merely a stumbling block n my estimation. So I guess i don't have a huge opinion on that. The biggest issue to me is how easily can the trigger be made better and how much better can it be.

If you read Vicker's AAR's you will notice he has certainly become a big fan of the M&P over the last couple of years. In fact he believes it will put a major dent in Glock's stronghold in LEA's across the country in the next 5 years. He bases this not on conjecture but from the experience of watching the mostly professional people he trains on a regular basis. If you want to know how well combat pistols and AR brands run, read the AAR's from Vickers, Pat Rogers, Louie Awerbuck and a couple of others. You will know the cream of the crop and the problem children real quick.

I have to admit that I tried the M&P a while back and did not like the trigger at all and people who had worked on them thought they still weren't great afterwards. Their bore axis is higher than a Glock and I prefer a very low one in general. However it is my understanding S&W has made some real strides forward on the trigger and I may have to revisit them at some point. I have a lot invested in my Glocks so I doubt I just change over, but I might pick up an M&P or shoot with some friends to see about getting one.

All in all I must admit that I think Vickers is right. I still prefer my Gen 3 just from what experience I have with the Gen 4.

Thanks David for posting this. I had not read it.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Warbird

[Guest CK1]

IMO Mr. Vickers is spot on, I'd agree with everything he said about the Gen4 Glocks and I was one of the guys ready to buy one sight unseen... My 3rd Gens work just fine (the Gen3 RTF2's with the fish gills are even slightly better IMHO), guess I'll just wait for the Gen5's...

[Guest oldsmobile98]

Thanks for posting this. My bro wants a G23, and I was wondering about the Gen. 4 Glocks. I've read some of the stuff on Vickers' website. His writing is short, sweet, and to the point.

[TGO David]

To be clear, I'm a Glock 19 fanboy. It's one of my collection that I won't be letting go of anytime soon. I'm also a 1911 fanboy and an M&P fanboy and an HK45 fanboy. I'm pretty much a gun whore... but at least a discriminating gun whore.

LAV is one of those guys who, when they speak, I listen. His resume -- or what little of it is declassified -- speaks volumes for itself.

@Warbird - If you try an M&P, invest in an Apex Tactical hardened sear at the very least. Or spend a little more and get Apex Tactical's service pistol package that includes the sear, springs and firing pin block. It's about 30 minutes worth of work to drop it all in, and your M&P will have an excellent trigger afterward.

[DWARREN123]

I have a Gen3 G22, Gen4 G22 and Gen3 G23. I like them all and carry them interchangeably. I feel that the G22/23 is more reliable than the XD's and XDm-40 I had and shoot them pretty good for a blind old timer.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

LAV is one of those guys who, when they speak, I listen. His resume -- or what little of it is declassified -- speaks volumes for itself.

+1

He's funny as hell if you ever meet him. I had dinner with him one night and got to listen to some war stories...those were worth listening to.

My thoughts, point by point

1. Agree

2. Disagree. The Gen4 RTF2 is less course than the original RTF, but still very "grippy." Many people complained that the original RTF was tearing up clothes when carrying concealed. I think Gen4 RTF2 is a good balance.

3. Didn't notice, but I only dry-fired the gun.

4. Agree. But, it's a non-issue for me since I wouldn't ever be using the supplied backstraps.

5. Agree. I'm concerned about this as well. I think Glock makes a mistake by using the same recoil systems in the 9mm and .40...especially with the new Gen4 style. Time will tell and I hope LAV (and me) is wrong.

6. Disagree. I think this is case by case basis and not across the board. The Gen4 17 that I played with had the usual trigger weight. I've picked up Gen3s that had unusually heavy triggers (yes, standard connectors/springs). It happens.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Todd@CIS

[THE COOP]

This concerns me just a little, I have a G19 and have made a few mods to make it MINE, I also just ordered a G17 gen 4 from the factory through my armorer's purchase program and it should be here in a few days. I also plan a few mods to make it MINE and hope to shoot IDPA with it this summer. I have absolute confidence that my new G17 will be 100% reliable!!! COOP

[THE COOP]

+1

He's funny as hell if you ever meet him. Had dinner with him one night and got to listen to some war stories...those were worth listening to.

My thoughts, point by point

1. Agree

2. Disagree. The Gen4 RTF is less course than the original RTF, but still very "grippy." Many people complained that the original RTF was tearing up clothes when carrying concealed. I think Gen4 RTF is a good balance.

3. Didn't notice, but I only dry-fired the gun.

4. Agree. But, it's a non-issue for me since I wouldn't ever be using the supplied backstraps.

5. Agree. I'm concerned about this as well. I think Glock makes a mistake by using the same recoil systems in the 9mm and .40...especially with the new Gen4 style. Time will tell.

6. Disagree. I think this is case by case basis and not across the board. The Gen4 17 that I played with had the usual trigger weight. I've picked up Gen3s that had unusually heavy triggers (yes, standard connectors/springs). It happens.

All my GLOCKS are Todd's fault after he let me use one of his GLOCKS during one of the CIS courses, Thanks a lot Todd!!!!! LOL. COOP

[jeremy155rr]

This concerns me just a little, I have a G19 and have made a few mods to make it MINE, I also just ordered a G17 gen 4 from the factory through my armorer's purchase program and it should be here in a few days. I also plan a few mods to make it MINE and hope to shoot IDPA with it this summer. I have absolute confidence that my new G17 will be 100% reliable!!! COOP

they let you order it from the factory? I thought you just had to go to a participating dealer like the gssf (law enforcement pricing) program. Thats cool, is it cheaper than le pricing?

[Guest gw2and4]

On the Gen4 spring issue: guess I'm one of those who lucked out since I have a model 22Gen4 in .40SW. To me, it did seem oversprung a little--but now that it has north of 350 rounds through it, I like it better. So far, not a single failure of any kind--even when I tried to purposefully limp-wrist it (wanted to see how tolerant the new spring was).

I am having trouble with the brass getting scarred up pretty good upon ejection with all three ambi mags...wondering what that's about. I think I've narrowed it down to the mags since the problem follows the ambi mags over to my 23, but the gun doesn't mark the brass when using a non-ambi mag from a Gen 3 22. Taking the Armorer course in Knoxville soon and will try to learn more about it there...

[Guest Todd@CIS]

On the Gen4 spring issue: guess I'm one of those who lucked out since I have a model 22Gen4 in .40SW. To me, it did seem oversprung a little--but now that it has north of 350 rounds through it, I like it better. So far, not a single failure of any kind--even when I tried to purposefully limp-wrist it (wanted to see how tolerant the new spring was).

Exactly our concern.

If it's "sprung" for a .40, is it a bit oversprung for a 9mm?

[Guest gw2and4]

If it's "sprung" for a .40, is it a bit oversprung for a 9mm?

Yes, it seems obvious this is a potential issue given how much more pressure is generated by a .40SW cartridge over a 9mm cartridge. Apparently, Glock's engineers have evaluated this concern and decided it's not an issue for us ignorant commoners...so have another glass of the .

And while I'm typing--let me thank Todd for calling me out on my slang by saying "sprung" or "oversprung". Should have stated that better and said the recoil spring tension seemed a bit too stiff for the .40SW round before firing several hundred rounds through the weapon. It seems better now that it's had ~350 put through it.

Hoping to get out to a CIS class in the near future. I've heard Todd can improve your shooting skills even better than he can improve your TGO communication skills. LOL

[Guest Todd@CIS]

And while I'm typing--let me thank Todd for calling me out on my slang by saying "sprung" or "oversprung". Should have stated that better and said the recoil spring tension seemed a bit too stiff for the .40SW round before firing several hundred rounds through the weapon. It seems better now that it's had ~350 put through it.

Hoping to get out to a CIS class in the near future. I've heard Todd can improve your shooting skills even better than he can improve your TGO communication skills. LOL

LOL...I'd like to claim all "English major" on you, but I wasn't calling you out (didn't mean to imply that).

Incorrect or not, I use the term all the time.

[Guest gw2and4]

LOL...I'd like to claim all "English major" on you, but I wasn't calling you out (didn't mean to imply that).

Incorrect or not, I use the term all the time.

Didn't think you were calling me out, so no worries. I just thought it was funny and decided to use that opportunity to try to plug your class and maybe get a free tuition coupon for defensive pistol or defensive carbine out of it. Worth a try, I thought.

[THE COOP]

they let you order it from the factory? I thought you just had to go to a participating dealer like the gssf (law enforcement pricing) program. Thats cool, is it cheaper than le pricing?

Unlike the GSSF program, you order right from the factory, I did the same with about $100 worth of parts and it took 4 weeks so I'm hoping ordering a pistol will be quicker?

On the pricing, I believe it's the same as LEO and GSSF. COOP

[Warbird]

To be clear, I'm a Glock 19 fanboy. It's one of my collection that I won't be letting go of anytime soon. I'm also a 1911 fanboy and an M&P fanboy and an HK45 fanboy. I'm pretty much a gun whore... but at least a discriminating gun whore.

LAV is one of those guys who, when they speak, I listen. His resume -- or what little of it is declassified -- speaks volumes for itself.

@Warbird - If you try an M&P, invest in an Apex Tactical hardened sear at the very least. Or spend a little more and get Apex Tactical's service pistol package that includes the sear, springs and firing pin block. It's about 30 minutes worth of work to drop it all in, and your M&P will have an excellent trigger afterward.

I see we have similar tastes. I am a fan of quality though not necessarily sold hard on anything.

[Guest JHatmaker]

Nice, looks like I'll just stick w/ a 3rd Gen then. Vickers is the man, I don't care how cheesy he gets sometimes on TV, with as much stuff that he's been involved in and helped develop he gets a free pass...

[Guest CK1]

Exactly our concern.

If it's "sprung" for a .40, is it a bit oversprung for a 9mm?

Think that's it right there. In a 9mm 3rd Gen Glock I prefer to run a 13-15lb spring but can live with the stock 17lber even though it's for sure a bit over-sprung... The one in the Gen4 seems like somewhere around 20-22lbs and while it probably means the Gen4 22's will run like champs even with lights on their rails now, I hope Glock is setting up a prodution line for softer one's for the 9's right now...

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Yeah, I think 15lbs is about perfect for the G19.

BTW, the G19/23 current factory weight is 18lbs.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Todd@CIS

[Superman]

Couldn't you just run a regular spring in the Gen4 17?

Edited April 4, 2010 by Superman

[Guest Todd@CIS]

No, totally different design from previous, factory recoil systems.

[BigPoppa]

.......and maybe get a free tuition coupon for defensive pistol or defensive carbine out of it.......

Best of luck with that, my friend.........I've been trying to angle that for years. Todd is, shall we say.........frugal.

[Superman]

No, totally different design from previous, factory recoil systems.

I know it's a dual spring system, but if the OAL is the same then the single spring system could work

[Reservoir Dog]

I know it's a dual spring system, but if the OAL is the same then the single spring system could work

If you are talking about using the Gen3 recoil spring, then the answer is no. It will not work. The Gen4 dual spring is bigger in diameter than the Gen3 spring, and the frame and slide have been redesigned to accommodate it. If you tried to use the Gen3 spring in a Gen4, the recoil spring would simply fall out of the slide, as there is nothing to hold it in.

Someone would have to design an aftermarket single spring system to work in the Gen4, which if there are problems, might not be far off.