Restaurant Carry Bill

[Guest HexHead]

So it's kinda like a 500 dollar poorly concealed tax.

I'll just consider it like the $400 "professional privilege tax" I have to pay every year. I don't like that one either.

My big concern is the anti groups like the Chamber of Commerce and the restaurant and hospitality associations are going to be going around to business owners that are unaware of the law or don't really give a crap. They might be out convincing lots of places that didn't want to put a "real" sign up, to go ahead and just put the international symbol on the door alongside the cigarette one "so they won't have to worry". Innocuous little signs that won't scare the tourists, but will annoy the hell out of us.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

YEP

[GLOCKMEISTER]

My only and biggest fear is if the Dept. of Safety starts revoking permits for violating this posting law... they shouldnt but if a pattern was to appear they might.

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

My only and biggest fear is if the Dept. of Safety starts revoking permits for violating this posting law... they shouldnt but if a pattern was to appear they might.

and we are 100% certain that a misdemeanor charge is not also involved?

[Guest 270win]

Yeah I am not worried about a sign in my everyday life either. I am too busy taking care of other things. My snub is hidden in a pocket holster. As far as businesses...I don't patronize on my dollar any with a proper or improper sign. Now if I have to go somewhere else....say the hospital to see someone...I just go there and keep it concealed as I do when I go the grocery store...whether or not there is a sign, proper sign, or improper sign. Same thing with local, state govt buildings.

I have the same view as Glockmeister...if worst comes to worst...and I mistakingly walk past one of these signs and I can't work it out..I'll just have to write a check to get it taken care of. A misdemeanor is not the end of the world. If I have to get a lawyer to take care of a silly sign deal...that's fine too. I just don't see it going that far though to get counsel...I'll probably be able to just walk away.

Traffic violations, if charged as a state violation, are misdemeanors. Public intox is a low level misdemeanor too. A lot of drunks walking around downtown Memphis that aren't getting arrested...so no not concerned...when those folks are out in the open attracting attention to themselves and not getting arrested and I'm concealing and minding my own business not causing problems.

Edited May 7, 2010 by 270win

[JAB]

Just out of curiosity for what other states are doing, I posted a question about legal signage on another, non state specific forum (KTOG, one of the Kel Tec forums.) Of course, the respondents are not lawyers any more than am I so these are simply their understandings of the law. These are private opinions and not intended to provide any type of legal comparison. However, I thought it would make a decent benchmark, if only a loose one. I will start with the responses my question has received so far and add more as they are posted. What I have gotten from the responses so far indicate that:

Oregon - circle/slash is a legal sign but CHL holders are exempt from signage in public places except government buildings, military bases and post offices. If you are caught carrying past a sign in a private establishment (I am assuming this means a private club, etc., but that assumption is mine) that is posted, you can be asked to leave and may not return for one year. If you do return, you can be arrested and charged for trespassing. So, no automatic fine and no ramifications for the first time you are caught other than being banned from the premises for one year.

Ohio - bill to carry where alchohol is served is still in hearings. Otherwise, sign must be at the entrance and 'easily seen'. The poster giving that information did not specifically say if the circle/slash is legal there or not. He did say that if you carry past the sign you will be asked to leave. You could be charged with trespass if you are still there when the police arrive.

Louisiana - No specific requirements for a sign to be a legal posting. If you carry where prohibited by a posting, you will be asked to leave and charged with trespass if you do not. This poster said that he has never seen any business in Louisiana posted even though the law allows them to do so with no specific requirements for a sign to be legal. Interestingly, the poster further said that to legally carry in a private residence, the law requires you to inform the person and receive their consent. He even posted part of the Louisiana statute:

...O. The provisions of Subsection N of this Section shall not limit the right of a property owner, lessee, or other lawful custodian to prohibit or restrict access of those persons possessing a concealed handgun pursuant to a permit issued under this Section. No individual to whom a concealed handgun permit is issued may carry such concealed handgun into the private residence of another without first receiving the consent of that person...

Arkansas - sign must be clearly readable from a minimum of ten feet, posted at all entrances and the wording must be, simply, "Carrying a handgun is prohibited." They are also required to notify when carrying in someone else's private residence. This poster did not say what the penalty for carrying in violation of the sign would be.

Kansas - the only official sign is the circle/slash. However, it must be a minimum of 8X8 square with a circle of at least six inches. It also cannot have any text within one inch of the graphic. Carrying past the sign holds a fine (the poster did not say how much the fine is.) However, the poster was under the impression that the general practice is that the LEOs will simply ask the person to leave if there are no other reasons for their having been called. Of course, that is up to the judgement of the individual LEO.

Edited May 7, 2010 by JAB

[Guest TNReb]

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/tennessee-politics-legislation/37807-restaurant-carry-bill-post511889.html#post511889

Thanks!

[Fallguy]

and we are 100% certain that a misdemeanor charge is not also involved?

Based on the amount of the fine it is a Class B misdemeanor.

Any violation of criminal law is a misdemeanor or felony.

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

thanks fallguy. As a person who rarely has any run in with the law, you see my knowledge of these matters is limited.

[G27]

That is correct...it specifically says in the law "punishable by $500 fine only."

It still sucks, but I can live with it.

I never OC anyway.

[JAB]

...but allowing the slash gun is going to make it A LOT EASIER for them to put up new signs. Heck they can go in their office, google the slash gun image and print it out and stick it on their front door and they're good to go. No cost of having one professionally done or they can go to Office Depot and get the printable window sheets and make it look pretty. I think this law will make it easier for a few more places to post up and at very little cost.

The thing is that I am not sure that most restaurant owners/managers were aware that the circle/slash was not already a legal posting - and yet we didn't see a lot of those going on front doors, either. These managers/owners may or may not have been aware of the change in the law, though.

[Fallguy]

thanks fallguy. As a person who rarely has any run in with the law, you see my knowledge of these matters is limited.

Hey.......what are you trying to say?

[Fallguy]

My only and biggest fear is if the Dept. of Safety starts revoking permits for violating this posting law... they shouldnt but if a pattern was to appear they might.

I had wondered about this too....

Do you think we could try and use a variation of the "John Denver" defense and say since 39-17-1359 says the $500 fine only, that suspension/revocation of your HCP would be an additional punishment?

Especially if the Governor signs the bill since it adds the 3 year suspension as an "additional punishment" to the charge of being armed and under the influence in a place open to the public that serves alcohol.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Fallguy

[Wingshooter]

The thing is that I am not sure that most restaurant owners/managers were aware that the circle/slash was not already a legal posting - and yet we didn't see a lot of those going on front doors, either. These managers/owners may or may not have been aware of the change in the law, though.

That's a good point, and you are probably right.

I think my biggest complaint is about the other locations that I know of that have displayed only a circle/slash for years that will now be off limits.

[Guest Jamie]

"John Denver" defense?

I think I need an explanation or link or something, 'cause I'm a bit lost.

And if it has anything to do with flying a small plane while intoxicated, then I'm completely off the map.

J.

[Guest don_m]

Just out of curiosity for what other states are doing...

Here in Pennsylvania it's about as good as it gets as far as carrying goes. The only places legally off-limits are courthouses and schools (plus the usual Federal places). "No guns" signs are not addressed in the law, and are considered pretty much like "keep off the grass" signs. You could be asked to leave and possibly charged with trespass. I've never seen a restaurant (or pretty much any other place), posted and I'm just a few miles outside of Philly. This has been in place since long before the Brady bunch started their misinformation campaign. Since there's no blood in the streets (or even down at Miss Kitty's saloon), the topic just never comes up.

[Guest jg45]

For those that think that "I'll just do it and pay the $500 fine if caught", remember penalties can change and be retroactive. It would not surprise me at all if in 5-10 years the law is changed so that a charge/conviction of carrying a weapon where specifically prohibited is cause for revocation of the HCP or worse. What if you move and the state you move to has a law that says a prior conviction of carrying where prohibited is cause to deny a permit? And remember, paying the fine is the same as admitting guilt.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I had wondered about this too....

Do you think we could try and use a variation of the "John Denver" defense and say since 39-17-1359 says the $500 fine only, that suspension/revocation of your HCP would be an additional punishment?

Especially if the Governor signs the bill since it adds the 3 year suspension as an "additional punishment" to the charge of being armed and under the influence in a place open to the public that serves alcohol.

I think so... hope so, well at least were on the same wave length of thinking.

[Oh Shoot]

Without quoting several who have wondered if an effort to quell non-compliance with carrying past signs might entail more than the $500 fine as things progress, let's not forget something:

There is a catch-all in the reasons you can have HCP terminated.

Yep, it's the old "poses a material risk to safety of public" or however it's exactly worded.

And it's the reason I was in the minority about Kwik's permit getting pulled, as they did on this basis, and he broke NO laws. All it takes in TNDOS deciding it. A simple letter from police to them was justification enough.

But anyone convicted of carrying past a sign has indeed done more than Kwik did in one major way, YOU BROKE A TN HANDGUN CARRY LAW. And without debating again the extreme nature of Kwik's behavior, the simple fact remains, he was declared to "pose that risk" while exactly obeying existing statutes, something someone carrying past a sign can NOT claim.

- OS

[molonlabetn]

Without quoting several who have wondered if an effort to quell non-compliance with carrying past signs might entail more than the $500 fine as things progress, let's not forget something:

There is a catch-all in the reasons you can have HCP terminated.

Yep, it's the old "poses a material risk to safety of public" or however it's exactly worded.

And it's the reason I was in the minority about Kwik's permit getting pulled, as they did on this basis, and he broke NO laws. All it takes in TNDOS deciding it. A simple letter from police to them was justification enough.

But anyone convicted of carrying past a sign has indeed done more than Kwik did in one major way, YOU BROKE A TN HANDGUN CARRY LAW. And without debating again the extreme nature of Kwik's behavior, the simple fact remains, he was declared to "pose that risk" while exactly obeying existing statutes, something someone carrying past a sign can NOT claim.

- OS

You do make an excellent point sir.

[Fallguy]

"John Denver" defense?

I think I need an explanation or link or something, 'cause I'm a bit lost.

And if it has anything to do with flying a small plane while intoxicated, then I'm completely off the map.

J.

Actually it was drunk driving.

His lawyer basically said you can't try him for DUI and take actions against his DL.

Drunks claim double jeopardy. (double jeopardy defense in drunk driving cases) - State Legislatures | Encyclopedia.com

JOHN DENVER CONFRONTS STATE ON DRUNK DRIVING.(Local) - Rocky Mountain News (Denver, CO) | Encyclopedia.com

[Fallguy]

For those that think that "I'll just do it and pay the $500 fine if caught", remember penalties can change and be retroactive. It would not surprise me at all if in 5-10 years the law is changed so that a charge/conviction of carrying a weapon where specifically prohibited is cause for revocation of the HCP or worse. What if you move and the state you move to has a law that says a prior conviction of carrying where prohibited is cause to deny a permit? And remember, paying the fine is the same as admitting guilt.

That would be going against the trend....

Last couple of years have been much better for us, even if we haven't got all we were looking for. Even under Nafieh I don't think any restrictions really got tougher.

If you could find it..I would like to see if any state does have a law that prevents the issuance of a carry permit if got carrying where posted.

Like others have posted, in many other states a posted sign doesn't have any legal consequences at all.

Shoot as of now...you can not have a HCP, get convicted of illegal possession of a handgun and later still get your HCP in TN. Hard to believe they would ever be harder on "illegal carry" for those with a HCP. I mean look at this bill even...be armed and drunk in a place that serves alcohol is only a 3 year suspension...not even a revocation. Which means you don't have to go through the whole process to get it back...just pay the reinstatement fee.

In 5-10 years I'm hoping 39-17-1359 is repealed or at least the fine lowered.

[Fallguy]

Without quoting several who have wondered if an effort to quell non-compliance with carrying past signs might entail more than the $500 fine as things progress, let's not forget something:

There is a catch-all in the reasons you can have HCP terminated.

Yep, it's the old "poses a material risk to safety of public" or however it's exactly worded.

And it's the reason I was in the minority about Kwik's permit getting pulled, as they did on this basis, and he broke NO laws. All it takes in TNDOS deciding it. A simple letter from police to them was justification enough.

But anyone convicted of carrying past a sign has indeed done more than Kwik did in one major way, YOU BROKE A TN HANDGUN CARRY LAW. And without debating again the extreme nature of Kwik's behavior, the simple fact remains, he was declared to "pose that risk" while exactly obeying existing statutes, something someone carrying past a sign can NOT claim.

- OS

Can't argue with any of that.

As you said...no need to debate his actions, but...it was several high profile incidents and not a single, non-press worthy event that got him to where he is.

[Guest Jamie]

Actually it was drunk driving.

His lawyer basically said you can't try him for DUI and take actions against his DL.

Drunks claim double jeopardy. (double jeopardy defense in drunk driving cases) - State Legislatures | Encyclopedia.com

JOHN DENVER CONFRONTS STATE ON DRUNK DRIVING.(Local) - Rocky Mountain News (Denver, CO) | Encyclopedia.com

Ah, I see now.

Thanks.

In 5-10 years I'm hoping 39-17-1359 is repealed or at least the fine lowered.

The most likely thing to happen is that it's just ignored and never enforced, if it turns out to be more trouble than it's worth to do so, or simply never a real problem to begin with.

J.

[Guest 270win]

I know in Alabama, Georgia, and Florida the signs do not have any sort of legal meaning under criminal statutes.

Arkansas gives it an 'off limits' area on the license...but I am from Arkansas and I will give you a couple of hints about Arkansas....back home you are REQUIRED to conceal when carrying on your license. Creative attorneys can deal with weapons charges by claiming the client was not carrying the handgun as a weapon with intent to use against a person, was 'on a journey', or going to and from hunting....signs don't mean squat if you are say 'on a journey' because you don't need a concealed handgun license.

I personally would not just pay the 500 'sign tax' B misdemeanor...if this silly thing actually is enforced..and my gun is exposed...get some legal help. It is a good idea to know one if you carry a handgun in public or have family that know one to connect you with one. I don't diagnose myself when I am sick...no way would I go to court alone over a charge...even a 500 fine...a good lawyer can often get a much more favorable outcome.