Restaurant Carry Bill

[Worriedman]

Yep, see post 664

Agree...however all Rayburn would have to do to make his sign legal is add the international symbol.

Rayburn was going to post, if it required a ten foot high sign twenty feet wide.

About the only thing I am happy with, (outside of letting the ABC sunset, I would suppose that caused a few puckers. State is broke, they might have to start playing by the rules for a change), is the certain knowledge that Rayburn is pissed beyond imagination tonight because little boy did not get his way!

[Volzfan]

He's in the No column, between Miller and Odum.

Yeah I know he voted no (as did my Rep. Sherry Jones) but I was surprised that we didn't HEAR him during the discussion today. I'm glad he kept quiet!

Edited May 6, 2010 by Volzfan

[Guest 270win]

I don't see how an international symbol with the words "No guns" would work...because the statute lays out just three criteria for legal posting:

1. International Symbol (Kind of Vague)

2. Reference TCA Penal Code

3. Symbol AND Reference Penal Code

Having 1, 2, 3...AND added other junk like "Take your gun back to the car too you crazy gun nut!"...would also seem to not work..thus not comply with 1,2,3.

Any deviation from those three would not seem to work. I know this sounds technical...but a lot of places even with 'legal' signs so far...aren't too good about putting it on all the entrances used for folks coming and going. Employees do come and go out of back/side doors. These companies/govts/organizations forget those doors/entrances I have noticed here in TN when I really have spare time when I do look high and low.

Signs aren't the smartest way to get 500 dollar fines due to vagueness in my opinion..the sign statute is horribly written...but I'd advise anyone to conceal conceal and conceal in this state for a while until the media stops covering this junk...and people forget about this silliness.

[Volzfan]

I don't see how an international symbol with the words "No guns" would work...because the statute lays out just three criteria for legal posting:

1. International Symbol (Kind of Vague)

2. Reference TCA Penal Code

3. Symbol AND Reference Penal Code

Having 1, 2, 3...AND added other junk like "Take your gun back to the car too you crazy gun nut!"...would also seem to not work..thus not comply with 1,2,3.

Any deviation from those three would not seem to work. I know this sounds technical...but a lot of places even with 'legal' signs so far...aren't too good about putting it on all the entrances used for folks coming and going. Employees do come and go out of back/side doors. These companies/govts/organizations forget those doors/entrances I have noticed here in TN when I really have spare time when I do look high and low.

Signs aren't the smartest way to get 500 dollar fines due to vagueness in my opinion..the sign statute is horribly written...but I'd advise anyone to conceal conceal and conceal in this state for a while until the media stops covering this junk...and people forget about this silliness.

From post #642 above

© A building, property or a portion of a building or property shall be considered properly posted in accordance with this section if one (1) or both of the following is displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited:

(i) The international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle; or

(ii) The posting sign described in this subdivision (3).

That to me says that ONLY the international symbol is enough to make a business properly posted. They can include the wording but it is not necessary. Rep. Todd answered someone about this during the discussion yesterday and said that a small decal would not be sufficient but I don't see anything that determines how large they would have to be.

[Guest 270win]

I may not have wrote it clearly, but I don't think putting up this international symbol AND other wording like "NO GUNS" would be legal...but just having the international symbol would be following the statute...wierd...but that is my understanding...b/c the statute just allows the three ways to post....the symbol/picture, the statute written out, OR the symbol WITH the state statute written out......added stuff doesn't seem to work like saying "Hey take your gun home" or "We hate guns"..would seem to void the signs all together....but hey again I think the whole thing is somewhat vague...and on shaky ground....if you look closely a lot of places still probably won't be legal...even with these symbols...but who has time to run to every door/entrance used by folks...to look high and low..to read the wording...etc...it's silly. Some maintenance worker is bound to forget an entrance...or not put a sign 'visible to the avg person'...b/c maintenance folks could care less and just want the job done and on to another project to keep the boss happy. And the boss really doesn't understand the fine points either. I doubt the legislators that wrote this 'sign' law do either...sadly most people don't either..or we wouldn't all be wondering...it's as clear as mud!

Edited May 6, 2010 by 270win

[Fallguy]

I don't see how an international symbol with the words "No guns" would work...because the statute lays out just three criteria for legal posting:

1. International Symbol (Kind of Vague)

2. Reference TCA Penal Code

3. Symbol AND Reference Penal Code

Having 1, 2, 3...AND added other junk like "Take your gun back to the car too you crazy gun nut!"...would also seem to not work..thus not comply with 1,2,3.

Any deviation from those three would not seem to work. I know this sounds technical...but a lot of places even with 'legal' signs so far...aren't too good about putting it on all the entrances used for folks coming and going. Employees do come and go out of back/side doors. These companies/govts/organizations forget those doors/entrances I have noticed here in TN when I really have spare time when I do look high and low.

Signs aren't the smartest way to get 500 dollar fines due to vagueness in my opinion..the sign statute is horribly written...but I'd advise anyone to conceal conceal and conceal in this state for a while until the media stops covering this junk...and people forget about this silliness.

I may not have wrote it clearly, but I don't think putting up this international symbol AND other wording like "NO GUNS" would be legal...but just having the international symbol would be following the statute...wierd...but that is my understanding...b/c the statute just allows the three ways to post....the symbol/picture, the statute written out, OR the symbol WITH the state statute written out......added stuff doesn't seem to work like saying "Hey take your gun home" or "We hate guns"..would seem to void the signs all together....but hey again I think the whole thing is somewhat vague...and on shaky ground....if you look closely a lot of places still probably won't be legal...even with these symbols...but who has time to run to every door/entrance used by folks...to look high and low..to read the wording...etc...it's silly. Some maintenance worker is bound to forget an entrance...or not put a sign 'visible to the avg person'...b/c maintenance folks could care less and just want the job done and on to another project to keep the boss happy. And the boss really doesn't understand the fine points either. I doubt the legislators that wrote this 'sign' law do either...sadly most people don't either..or we wouldn't all be wondering...it's as clear as mud!

I see what you're saying. ..and I agree it could be read to allow only the symbol, only the proper sign or the both. However I don't think the symbol along with the words "No Guns" would be seen as not a proper posting by most people (i.e. LEOs and Judges among others)

What if symbol is on one sign and whatever words are on another? Does the symbol standing alone and the other words being separate make it legal? If so, then I'm not sure just adding the words to the same piece of paper suddenly invalidates it.

No, if the sign gets too "cute" with it's wording I could see a good argument being made that it wasn't clear.

Since as we've mentioned many times that we can't seem to find anyone charged with a violation of 39-17-1359 I hope all of this discussion is really just academic and that better changes can be made later.

[ngoeser59]

My friend Adam & I were up in the nose bleed section (the gallery) in the House watching it all as it happened. The NRA is a very good organization that has fought hard for our 2nd Amendment Rights. I hate it that they were made out to be some kind of threatening powerhouse by one of our Representatives (on the Republican side). Heidi Keisling (NRA Lobbyist) has been very diplomatic with all the Legislators and it bothered me that this comment was made because it makes her look bad. It was not necessary. This was again....a bipartisan vote. For those Reps that voted against the bill, I just hope they are never in a horrible sitaution like Ben & I were. Legislators are not immune from stalkers & murderers & should be able to defend themselves. What happened to me can happen to ANYONE. We have a VETO that is going to need to be overriden. It has to be a 2/3 vote. Please stay diligent in your efforts to contact our Legislators on this Bill! Your emails, phone calls & faxes are very very very important!! Please stay involved and make sure you are personally doing SOMETHING to help get this bill passed.

Hugs to my pistol pack'in pals

Nikki

[Guest HexHead]

That's exactly what I was talking about for about 30 pages here.

[Guest HexHead]

We have a VETO that is going to need to be overriden. It has to be a 2/3 vote. Please stay diligent in your efforts to contact our Legislators on this Bill!

IIRC, that's incorrect Nikki. Veto override only requires a simple majority. At least that's what we were told last year.

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

My friend Adam & I were up in the nose bleed section (the gallery) in the House watching it all as it happened. The NRA is a very good organization that has fought hard for our 2nd Amendment Rights. I hate it that they were made out to be some kind of threatening powerhouse by one of our Representatives (on the Republican side). Heidi Keisling (NRA Lobbyist) has been very diplomatic with all the Legislators and it bothered me that this comment was made because it makes her look bad. It was not necessary. This was again....a bipartisan vote. For those Reps that voted against the bill, I just hope they are never in a horrible sitaution like Ben & I were. Legislators are not immune from stalkers & murderers & should be able to defend themselves. What happened to me can happen to ANYONE. We have a VETO that is going to need to be overriden. It has to be a 2/3 vote. Please stay diligent in your efforts to contact our Legislators on this Bill! Your emails, phone calls & faxes are very very very important!! Please stay involved and make sure you are personally doing SOMETHING to help get this bill passed.

Hugs to my pistol pack'in pals

Nikki

Nikki - do you have some inside information that Bredesen is indeed going to Veto this bill?

[GLOCKMEISTER]

He will unless hes simply too busy with all the flooding.

[Volzfan]

Here is an NRA-ILA article from last year when Bredesen's veto was overridden.

Tennessee Legislature Overrides Governor's Veto of HB 962

Thursday, June 04, 2009

Fairfax, Va. – In a strong reaffirmation of the self-defense rights of Tennesseans, the Tennessee House and Senate have successfully overridden Governor Phil Bredesen’s veto of House Bill 962. This NRA-supported bill will enable law-abiding right-to-carry permit holders to carry firearms for self-defense in restaurants. HB 962 passed both the House and Senate with broad bipartisan support, but Gov. Bredesen vetoed the bill on May 28, disappointing more than 200,000 right-to-carry permit holders in his state. While an override of the veto only needed a simple majority vote to pass, it cleared both chambers with overwhelming, bi-partisan support. Passage of the measure will allow law-abiding Tennesseans to protect themselves and their families. This measure was overridden today in the Senate by a margin of 21-9.

[G27]

Veto override only requires a simple majority.

Yeppers.

[Volzfan]

I know that this is old news but I thought that I would post it for those that don't get the alerts from the NRA-ILA.

Restaurant Carry Passes in Tennessee!

On Wednesday, May 5, the Tennessee State House moved to adopt Senate Bill 3012 in replace of House Bill 3125, by a vote of 66 to 31.

The State House had to first table an anti-gun amendment attached to HB 3125, before they were able to substitute and conform to SB 3012. This anti-gun amendment, authored by State Representative Harry Tindell (D-3), would have required the owner of an establishment that serves alcohol to post based on a percentage of their food sales. This qualifier would have thus created a standard of vagueness within the law for the restaurant owners when determining whether or not the establishment was subject to the mandatory posting in the first place.

This bill also faced a last ditch effort made by State Representative Joe McCord (R-8) to attach the Tindell amendment to the House version of the bill. This would have forced a conference committee between the House and the Senate, which ultimately would have defeated the bill.

Sponsored by State Senator Doug Jackson (D-25) and by State Representative Curry Todd (R-95), SB3012 will enable a person who has a valid Right-to-Carry permit to carry a firearm for self-defense in restaurants where alcohol may be served, as long as the permit holder is not consuming alcohol or is not otherwise prohibited by posting provisions. Alcohol consumption would be prohibited and violation would result in the loss of a permit for three years. SB3012 also clearly defines posting provisions.

This legislation was filed in response to a court ruling last November. The previously enacted law was held to be unconstitutionally vague because of a perceived ambiguity over the state’s definition of restaurants. SB3012 will fix any ambiguity.

SB3012 will now head to the desk of Governor Phil Bredesen (D) for consideration. Please contact Governor Bredesen and urge him to sign SB3012. He can be reached by phone at (615) 741-2001 or by email at Phil.Bredesen@tn.gov.

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

I just noticed that both the House Speaker and Senate Speaker have signed the bill this morning. That should get it moving toward the Governor fairly quickly. Time to call him and encourage him to sign the bill into law and show his trust and support for TN HCP holders rather than a Veto.

[Volzfan]

I just noticed that both the House Speaker and Senate Speaker have signed the bill this morning. That should get it moving toward the Governor fairly quickly. Time to call him and encourage him to sign the bill into law and show his trust and support for TN HCP holders rather than a Veto.

Call and email done!

I hope they don't remember what I said after he vetoed the bill last year.

[GKar]

Status has now been updated to indicate its been transmitted to the governor.

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

And a new update just popped up - "Transmitted to Governor for action"

So I guess it is officially 'on the governors desk' at this point.

OOPS, sorry GKar- I guess we posted at the same time.

[Guest HexHead]

Call and email done!

I hope they don't remember what I said after he vetoed the bill last year.

Same here

Same here

Same here!

[Volzfan]

Same here

Same here

Same here!

[GLOCKMEISTER]

GUYS HERES THE REAL ISSUE... TIME!!!!!

Since the beginning we all knew this bill would probably pass with no problems, but the delaying tactics was killing us. The Governor has 10 days(not counting Sunday) to sign this thing or veto it. If he veto's it he will probably do it on the 9th hour of the 9th day. The problem is the legislature was trying to get everything wrapped up and get outta town by the 13th or 20th. This means if he veto's it on the 17th they may already be gone. If they are then its going to be a literal act of God to get them back for a special session to just override this one bill... honestly don't see it happening... meaning its dead. Our only hope is that maybe the flooding has slowed down the legislative process enough to bye us some more time. The legislator may stay in regular session until the 27th. Thats our only hope.

So there you have it.... time, its our enemy!

[Volzfan]

My call and email was asking him to just allow it to become law without his signature. I think that it would take an act of God for him to sign it. Stranger things have happened! You are right, time is NOT on our side!

[ngoeser59]

I stand corrected. After double checking....the override vote only requires a simple majority vote. Bredesen is going to Veto it most likely or he MAY just let it become law without a signature (afterall the Legislative body has Twice now passed this Bill) and the Governor needs to be focused on this flood and the budget. My personal guess is......he will veto it.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Nikki, its all about time... ck out my post above.

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

It seems to me that for the Governor to Veto a bill AFTER the legislative body has adjourned and can't respond, is just a political foul all the way around. Not saying it doesn't happen or is against legislative process but that to me would be the ultimate slap in the face to TN residents.

It also seems highly irresponsible of the legislative body to Adjourn when they have 'unfinished business' sitting on the governors desk that might still require their attention.

Of course, that is why i am an network engineer and not a congressman.