Restaurant Carry Bill

[GKar]

HB2694/SB3735 are the bills you are asking about, Macville. House committees are finished with 2694, and it awaits the House floor: SB 3735 is scheduled to be taken up by Sen Jud cmte this afternoon at 3pm CT (on a very crowded agenda, along with several other firearms bills). If it gets rolled today, you have your answer...

If they wish to do so, I believe one chamber can move to adopt the bill as passed by the other chamber on the floor vote, thus avoiding reconciliation.

The Senate Jud committee voted on that amendment couple of weeks ago - nobody noticed till now?

The $500 fine has been in this bill since the start...its not a new addition via any recent amendment.

Court challenge to this one seems unlikely to be successful, at least from the vagueness statues...whether you actually see the sign or not (crowds, etc) is NOT an issue of vagueness. Use of the circle/slash will be viewed by the court as a definitive action - whether one chooses to continue ignore it (an act never officially sanctioned by any court, TMK) likewise would not be viewed as an issue of vagueness, but rather as an irresponsible personal act.

Spkr Williams caved to this amendment in the House proceedings yesterday, and even went so far as to express agreement with it...that should tell you the likelihood of getting any alternative legislation through at this point. I'll stop my comments on that point now before I get asked to take a vacation...

[JAB]

I don't like the idea that the circle/slash might be a legal sign but not being able to carry where there is a circle/slash is still a hell of a lot better than not being able to carry anywhere that even offers one or two kinds of bottled beer as beverage options on their menu. A whole hell of a lot better, IMO. This is the way I see it:

*If a business posts a sign with the required wording and I don't have to go in there (and most of the time there will be a choice) then eff 'em. I'll spend my money elsewhere.

*If a business posts a circle/slash sign hoping to simply appease the anti-2A whiners, with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge hope that HCP holders will still spend money in their establishment and the circle/slash becomes 'legal' then eff them, too. I'll spend my money with an establishment that has the testicular fortitude not to post, at all.

*This point is more about my personal situation but most of the places I like to eat - the family owned and mom & pop type places - that serve alchohol are very unlikely to post anything, at all. If any of them do, eff 'em - there are other places just like them that want my business.

That said, the idea that the sign could be roughly as small as a notecard is riduculous. If these places want to post then their sign should have to be at least 8.5 X 11 if not larger (12 X 12 would be even better.) There should also be specific color requirements for the circle/slash if it is to be a legal posting. Bright colors. No black and white or black on a clear [window sticker] background nonsense. I'm thinking a 'caution yellow' background with a dark red circle/slash and black handgun.

Edited April 21, 2010 by JAB

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

So - this might have been asked already and I missed it. if so, I apologized. The question: IF the amendment making the circle/slash sign a legal posting for businesses that serve alcohol gets into the final bill and IF there ends up being a fine for disobeying that sign. Does the same hold true for ANY business that uses the circle/slash? For instance, if my local hardware store puts up the circle/slash and I get caught in there with my pistol - do I still get in the same legal trouble that I would if I carried past that sign in a bar that is posting because it derives +50% of its revenue from alcohol sales?

Edited April 21, 2010 by pws_smokeyjones

[GKar]

I wouldn't think so. With the current language, it seems the provisions (allowing the circle/slash) are specific to the situation described in the bill (establishments that serve alcohol).

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

I wouldn't think so. With the current language, it seems the provisions (allowing the circle/slash) are specific to the situation described in the bill (establishments that serve alcohol).

Which will make the concept of a circle/slash even that much more confusing - will it not? For example - a bar and a hardware store are side by side in a strip mall - both are posted with the circle/slash. One you can legally carry past, the other you can't. Or maybe you can't carry past either one because the hardware store actually sells beer and you don't know it etc...

Kind of a stretch of an analogy, but I am trying to make a point.

[macville]

Which will make the concept of a circle/slash even that much more confusing - will it not? For example - a bar and a hardware store are side by side in a strip mall - both are posted with the circle/slash. One you can legally carry past, the other you can't. Or maybe you can't carry past either one because the hardware store actually sells beer and you don't know it etc...

Kind of a stretch of an analogy, but I am trying to make a point.

Actually, not a stretch at all. There are tons of restaurants like Moe's which sell beer, but you wouldn't know until you got to the little in counter cooler right next to the cash register. How are you supposed to know if they sell when they don't advertise it? How am I supposed to know if it's really a legal sign?

Posted signs should be at least letter paper size and include both the state prescribed text AND a gunbuster symbol. Posting should have to be ON any door you walk through to get into a place. I don't know why the republicans don't stand up to these idiots. They could have had this over and done weeks ago and be focusing on more important things.

Matthew

[Oh Shoot]

Yeah, the whole posting part is a mess.

I actually didn't realize the senate bill had basically retained all this posting crap...thought the revision of 39-17-1359 was common to both bills ... until reading here today.

Other, obviously post simian thinking, state legislatures simply pass carry laws and make them universal to everyone ... ours, of course, pass laws that cities, counties, businesses, restaurants don't have to follow, as long as they post a sign, and not even a standardized one at that.

It is often actually embarrassing to watch them on live feed ... we could do better by holding raffles rather than elections to pick our representatives.

- OS

[Guest 270win]

It's silly that these legislators spend so much effort over a damned sign and even write two pages of crap for the damned sign and think of a five hundred dollar fine for those with a license/permit if you walk past it. How stupid is that? A lot of states function just fine without folks being able to get fined over these signs....Alabama, GA, Florida, Missouri....two pages of crap to try to screw us...real pro gun.

What's even more funny is a friend of mine paid like ten bucks for his pistol license in Birmingham...no class...no hassle at the sheriff's dept...and he could carry anywhere in the state like an off duty cop. Why are we being shafted by our legislators when we jump through more hoops than folks do down there over a sign??? What an insult.

Edited April 21, 2010 by 270win

[Guest db99wj]

So, do I have this crap straight:

1. Food sales that are 50% and less - Can't carry

2. Those that are 50% or more you can carry, unless:

a. They are posted

3. The posting has to be substantially similar to their template, and must contain those three items or it can be anything like the circle gun slash sign???

4. If caught, the fine is $500.

I'm confused.

[Guest HexHead]

It's silly that these legislators spend so much effort over a damned sign and even write two pages of crap for the damned sign and think of a five hundred dollar fine for those with a license/permit if you walk past it. How stupid is that? A lot of states function just fine without folks being able to get fined over these signs....Alabama, GA, Florida, Missouri....two pages of crap to try to screw us...real pro gun.

What's even more funny is a friend of mine paid like ten bucks for his pistol license in Birmingham...no class...no hassle at the sheriff's dept...and he could carry anywhere in the state like an off duty cop. Why are we being shafted by our legislators when we jump through more hoops than folks do down there over a sign??? What an insult.

Because we have more egghead educators, californians, worthless hippie musicians and northerners in our capitol city then they do.

I'm getting to the point where I don't give a **** what they do. Concealed meant concealed before last July and since last November. I think the only reason I'll even bother to renew my permit next time is because at least when I travel to other states, they don't act like you're trying to use the "white's only" restroom.

[Guest HexHead]

I see the Sen Judiciary Committee has SB 3735, the Senate version of HB2694 as it's last item today. I wonder if they'll pass it or roll it? It's item #33 and they convened at 3pm. I bet the lazy ****ers will just want to go home.

[GKar]

Which will make the concept of a circle/slash even that much more confusing - will it not? For example - a bar and a hardware store are side by side in a strip mall - both are posted with the circle/slash. One you can legally carry past, the other you can't. Or maybe you can't carry past either one because the hardware store actually sells beer and you don't know it etc...

Kind of a stretch of an analogy, but I am trying to make a point.

I believe the problem with your analogy is that, TMK, the court has never actually said you can legally walk past the circle/slash on the hardware store (if I'm wrong here, I apologize, and you can quit reading now) - that is only someone's opinion until it's actually tried and subject to a court ruling. And if that's the case, it matters not if a place sells alcohol or not - if you decide to walk past a sign, you are volunteering to be the test case.

I don't like this legislation any more than most of you folks, but we need to make reasoned, factual objections that can stand the scrutiny of legal challenge if we are gonna make truly persuasive arguments to our legislators. Otherswise, we risk coming across as the hot-headed, ill-informed miscreants that the opposition loves to talk about...

[Guest 270win]

Hex,

I understand with you on the concealing. I haven't worried much about these signs but it is the whole principal of things at how these legislators sit and shaft us after we have done quite a bit more to prove that we're legit than some surrounding states like Alabama...but we're given these little petty legal traps. I mean what is the point at the state requiring people to get a permit to carry in public or get fined...THEN having signs in public JUST for people with permits that can get them fined??? That is retarded. The funny thing is you can't get fined over the sign if you don't have a permit...It only applies to those with permits. So don't have a permit...get fined for 'intent to go armed' Class A Misd...Have a permit get fined for a sign?

[Guest HexHead]

Let's face it, we've got morons in the legislature. It's funny, not ha ha funny, but sad funny that AZ ad VA both put up restaurant carry bills based on our HB0962 last year. In VA, they even had been allowed to open carry into restaurants that served alcohol for years before that.

AZ and VA both passed their restaurant carry bills without issue. AZ has even, less that one year later, even passed into a law, that starting in 90 days after the legislature adjourns, allows concealed carry in the state without even so much as a class, background check or permit. You do need a permit however to carry into establishments that serve alcohol.

And we've got a bunch of retards up on the hill, that couldn't find their asses with both hands, arguing about how to screw us over with a sign.

[Fallguy]

So - this might have been asked already and I missed it. if so, I apologized. The question: IF the amendment making the circle/slash sign a legal posting for businesses that serve alcohol gets into the final bill and IF there ends up being a fine for disobeying that sign. Does the same hold true for ANY business that uses the circle/slash? For instance, if my local hardware store puts up the circle/slash and I get caught in there with my pistol - do I still get in the same legal trouble that I would if I carried past that sign in a bar that is posting because it derives +50% of its revenue from alcohol sales?

Actually the Senate Amendment makes the slash and gun a legal posting for any business, not just those that sell alcohol.

It can bee seen here http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/106/Amend/SA1236.pdf

[Fallguy]

I have to say HB2694 is looking better....not so much because it is a "better" bill, but with different amendments on HB3125/SB3012 I really do doubt there is time for it to make it through the whole process.....

[Guest HexHead]

Actually the Senate Amendment makes the slash and gun a legal posting for any business, not just those that sell alcohol.

It can bee seen here http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/106/Amend/SA1236.pdf

Reading it again, that would be correct and it truly sucks. Many places that would have thought twice about posting with a correct legal verbiage sign won't give a second thought to a little circle/ slash gun sign right next to the no smoking one. We'll be better off in the long run with no bill than this POS.

Edited April 21, 2010 by HexHead

[Guest HexHead]

I have to say HB2694 is looking better....not so much because it is a "better" bill, but with different amendments on HB3125/SB3012 I really do doubt there is time for it to make it through the whole process.....

Don't kid yourself, 2694 is by far a better bill. 3125 was crap right from the start.

[Motasyco]

I've missed you Hex.

[Guest HexHead]

I've missed you Hex.

Don't worry, I doubt I'm stayin'.

But I'm doing well with my new year's resolution. :D:D

[GKar]

Very early on, I said 2694 would be a better solution. I still believe that, with one caveat - it is a better solution only if it can pass in the current House. Unless there are some deep back-door dealings already at work, its beginning to look like 2694 can't/won't pass this session. So the real, real question - do you want to wait until next year, with a new legislature of unknown composition, to try again, or do you live with the current proposal - flawed it may be - until some future legislature can be persuaded to take the matter up again?

[Oh Shoot]

...So the real, real question - do you want to wait until next year,...

I'd just as soon they did nothing rather than the way this is turning out.

Hopefully, the way the nation seems to be turning to more conservative leadership, maybe we could get a clean carry anywhere/no posting allowed, like other states.

I see the likelihood of much fewer places to legally carry with this POS, and not just booze serving restaurants.

The fine for carrying past a sign right now is also $500, with no misdemeanor category or jail time either, so no real difference there. Actually, it's $500 max, not necessarily $500 period.

- OS

[Guest HexHead]

Very early on, I said 2694 would be a better solution. I still believe that, with one caveat - it is a better solution only if it can pass in the current House. Unless there are some deep back-door dealings already at work, its beginning to look like 2694 can't/won't pass this session. So the real, real question - do you want to wait until next year, with a new legislature of unknown composition, to try again, or do you live with the current proposal - flawed it may be - until some future legislature can be persuaded to take the matter up again?

The ramification of this clusterphuck will haunt us for a long time. Unless the House gets the Senate to adopt their version of the bill, at this point i'd rather they pass nothing.

Currently, according to our worthless AG Cooper's opinion, a circle/ slash on it's own is meaningless. The Senate amendment would give just the circle/ slash the same authority as a full blown legal language sign. Screw that.

And Doug Jackson showed he's just another worthless Democrat by screwing us and supporting that amendment.

Edited April 21, 2010 by HexHead

[Guest HexHead]

BTW... speaking of our worthless AG, Cooper. Has anyone heard a peep about the appeal he's supposedly filed of Bonneyman's decision? You know, the one Williams wanted to wait on before proceeding with any legislation?

[GKar]

Unless the Senate version was dealt with in the first 20 minutes of the Jud cmte debate, it likely ain't gonna happen today/this week. They have been hung up on the juvenile sex offfender registry for the last 30 minutes or so, with no end in sight. Jackson's bleeding heart is beginning to drip a bit here, too.