Critical Defense in .45 Auto

[Guest bart_p]

I have never in my life heard that claim before, in fact it is usually the contrary. +P Ammunition produces unneeded stress on pistol frames, please explain to me why you think non +P ammo is a reliability risk, this should be quite entertaining

There are several advantages to using +P loads. Most modern defensive arms are designed to handle the higher pressure defensive loads. In turn, this means their slides are beefed up (heavier) and their recoil springs are stronger. Using a +P loading ensures reliable function when circumstances are less than ideal. This includes things such as a dirty weapon, harsh environments, and limp wristing while under stress. Another advantage to using +P is that the higher velocity keeps the expansion reliable, especially through barriers. As advanced as JHPs are in this day and age, they can still become clogged and rendered a FMJ. Lastly, the higher velocity of the +P does give you a marginal increase in momentum. That increase reduces deflection. In turn, it is then able to punch through bone structures more consistently.

Bart

[MacGyver]

Using a +P loading ensures reliable function when circumstances are less than ideal. This includes things such as a dirty weapon, harsh environments, and limp wristing while under stress.

This seems akin to the "use a bigger hammer" school of thought, and I think may be not just untrue, but dangerous. If your gun is dirty, wet, or your form is not up to par (linp wristing, improper grip, whatever), +p ammunition is only going to exacerbate the issue. Just because the round is higher pressure and "may" cycle the slide faster doesn't mean that it's a magic bullet. If you've got issues with your form, or a poorly maintained weapon, +p is going to cause more issues than it solves.

In fact, I can think of at least a few modern weapons that don't function particularly well on +p, period. The XD in 45 has a stock magazine spring that doesn't particularly like them. It's not strong enough to get a new round up before the slide cycles, causing significant issues for some users.

[mikegideon]

There are several advantages to using +P loads. Most modern defensive arms are designed to handle the higher pressure defensive loads. In turn, this means their slides are beefed up (heavier) and their recoil springs are stronger. Using a +P loading ensures reliable function when circumstances are less than ideal. This includes things such as a dirty weapon, harsh environments, and limp wristing while under stress. Another advantage to using +P is that the higher velocity keeps the expansion reliable, especially through barriers. As advanced as JHPs are in this day and age, they can still become clogged and rendered a FMJ. Lastly, the higher velocity of the +P does give you a marginal increase in momentum. That increase reduces deflection. In turn, it is then able to punch through bone structures more consistently.

Bart

Hornady CD doesn't clog. That's their big selling point

[willis68]

There are several advantages to using +P loads. Most modern defensive arms are designed to handle the higher pressure defensive loads. In turn, this means their slides are beefed up (heavier) and their recoil springs are stronger. Using a +P loading ensures reliable function when circumstances are less than ideal. This includes things such as a dirty weapon, harsh environments, and limp wristing while under stress. Another advantage to using +P is that the higher velocity keeps the expansion reliable, especially through barriers. As advanced as JHPs are in this day and age, they can still become clogged and rendered a FMJ. Lastly, the higher velocity of the +P does give you a marginal increase in momentum. That increase reduces deflection. In turn, it is then able to punch through bone structures more consistently.

Bart

Bart,

Just keep telling yourself that if it helps you go through life, even if a gun is rated for +P ammunition the felt recoil and stress to the pistol caused due to higher pressures outweigh any benefits achieved. I carry standard pressure Remington Golden Saber 230 Grain, the same ammunition that the FBI HRT team carry, if it is good enough for them it will sure as hell serve my defensive needs and always functions superbly in all of my .45's

Edited April 15, 2010 by willis68

[Guest bart_p]

I seem to be finding a trend here. Every time I post a tid bit of information it seems to come back on me full-circle. If you don't want to shoot +P rounds, then don't shoot them. Don't discount the fact that for a generalization (ie I didn't say every gun ever made) my post was spot on. I'm starting to find that this forum is full of close-minded kool-aide drinkers that don't want to hear anything that contradicts what they have been told or read in their beloved gun rags.

Bart

[willis68]

I seem to be finding a trend here. Every time I post a tid bit of information it seems to come back on me full-circle. If you don't want to shoot +P rounds, then don't shoot them. Don't discount the fact that for a generalization (ie I didn't say every gun ever made) my post was spot on. I'm starting to find that this forum is full of close-minded kool-aide drinkers that don't want to hear anything that contradicts what they have been told or read in their beloved gun rags.

Bart

I am in no way close minded, I have been shooting for well over 20 years, that my friend leads to experience. I have shot more +P ammo more than likely than you have shot of any kind and for you to give advise on this board that can potentially harm some one's pistol you should expect to be challenged on your wisdom of the matter. Please tell me of your vast experience on this matter, I do not read gun magazines I prefer to shoot and make my own decisions PS I hate Cool Aide!!!

Edited April 15, 2010 by willis68

[mikegideon]

The new Winchester bonded PDX rounds are mean stuff and they are 230 grain. Both ammo is excellent just depends on what grain bullet you like to shoot 185gr or 230gr

The Winchester Bonded PDX1 is engineered to maximize terminal performance as defined by the demanding FBI test protocol, which simulates real-world threats-now available in a full line of popular handgun calibers.

• Proprietary bonding process- Welds lead and jacket together to work as a unit controlling expansion and providing superior retained weight.

• Upon impact- Bonding process ensures the lead permanently adheres to the jacket for maximum stopping power.

• Upon impact; expands to 1.5 times

• Jacket notching- Six segments help promote positive, consistent and programmed expansion at a variety of impact velocities.

• Nickel plated shellcase

• 20 Round Boxes

Video and product link

www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/supreme-elite/bonded-pdx1/Pages/S45PDB.aspx

I have these in .45 and 9mm. It's interesting that the standard pressure 9's are 147 gr bullets. Haven't shot any of the 9's yet.

[Guest bart_p]

Like I said in my first response, both firearms and ammunition have come a long way. They have come a long way in your 20 years experience as well. Defensive rounds have come a very, very long way since the first JHP rounds. Now that the technology to produce a round that expands more reliably (not 100%, I don't care what a manufacturer claims) is coming to fruition, it only makes logical sense for the firearm to be able to handle that round. In numerous cases you will see that a +P round will expand greater, punch through bone more frequently (less deflection due to increase velocity), and generally cause more damage in all aspects when compared to its non +P counterpart. Since this fact is coming to light, firearms manufacturers are beefing up their products (for the majority of them anyways) to handle these more desirable rounds (for many professionals). If one were to take that same weapon and put non +P rounds through it, it would most likely function just fine. I never said it wouldn't. What I did say, however, is that under harsh conditions +P ammunition can help the gun function through (overcome if you will) things that could potentially impede its function (dirt, mud, water, limp wristing due to stress). If your weapon never experiences the first three, then lucky you, but unless you have been in a gun fight I don't think its fair to assume you know you wouldn't be limp wristing due to stress. That possibility alone is enough for me to want to stack the cards as much in my favor as possible (along with the better chance of rounds being more effective on target with +P). I personally have nothing vested in what you chose to carry or use or how you use it. I was simply stating a bit of information. If you disagree, fine, but I am sick of people jumping on me for stating my opinion/information I am passing along. If I'm not mistaken that's what these forums are for.

Bart

[Guest johnmattwill]

I finally picked up a box at Greenbrier today... thanks Daniel.....