Obamacare and the Death of Detroit

[mikegideon]

So take as mentioned here, Detroit, East St. Louis,Memphis and what is the prime factor. Welfare entitlement mentality, Obamacare, gimme something for nothing its all coming out of Obama's stash. Taking from the producers and punishing them for produceing and transfering their wealth to the unproductive in the name of fairness and social justice.

So, you think that it's primarily a welfare program? No wonder you're pissed.

[Hgunner]

Think.....hell they already said it's to control people and redistribute wealth...no thinking to it. Just listen to what they say, I'm not as pissed as I am saddened to see my country swirling in the bowl.

[Hgunner]

Oh and it would be one thing if it was just taking more of our hard earned money and buying people insurance or providing healthcare. Which by the way we alrready do its called Medicaid. But they are going to threaten all of us with fines, prison sentences

excetra if we DO NOT BUY A POLICY THEY APPROVE OF!!!!!!! They are in effect putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do what they say do, its oh so very wrong its F _ _ king UN-AMERICA with a capital F!!!!!

[mikegideon]

Think.....hell they already said it's to control people and redistribute wealth...no thinking to it. Just listen to what they say, I'm not as pissed as I am saddened to see my country swirling in the bowl.

I HAVE listened to what they say, and have tried not to take anything out of context. I don't listen to Rush, Beck, or any of those types.

[mikegideon]

Oh and it would be one thing if it was just taking more of our hard earned money and buying people insurance or providing healthcare. Which by the way we alrready do its called Medicaid. But they are going to threaten all of us with fines, prison sentences

excetra if we DO NOT BUY A POLICY THEY APPROVE OF!!!!!!! They are in effect putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do what they say do, its oh so very wrong its F _ _ king UN-AMERICA with a capital F!!!!!

I don't like that any more than you do, even though I've always had insurance, and will never go without it. They had to do that to eliminate preexisting conditions.

[Hgunner]

I HAVE listened to what they say, and have tried not to take anything out of context. I don't listen to Rush, Beck, or any of those types.

Would you believe it if you heard it from Howard Dean and Max Baucus (D-Montana) It's out there read,research, and this was a CNBC interview.

Gateway Pundit

[Hgunner]

How about Rep. John Dingel D- Michigan on Obamacare controlling the people.

[Hgunner]

Bury your head in sand if you must, but I won't and I'll try my best to get people to pay attention and think. Also note none of this came from Beck or Rush, and bringing them into it is a lame Marxist left tatic too.

[mikegideon]

Would you believe it if you heard it from Howard Dean and Max Baucus (D-Montana) It's out there read,research, and this was a CNBC interview.

Gateway Pundit

Pretty tightly edited stuff. I'm done

[Hgunner]

Pretty tightly edited stuff. I'm done

Yes tightly edited, but I pointed you in the right direction, I'm sure you can find the entire interviews and transcripts, I'm not going to do basic research for you, I'll just show you direction you must want to find the truth hard enough to do it.

[mikegideon]

Yes tightly edited, but I pointed you in the right direction, I'm sure you can find the entire interviews and transcripts, I'm not going to do basic research for you, I'll just show you direction you must want to find the truth hard enough to do it.

Thanks for guiding me. I'm pretty stupid

[Guest HvyMtl]

Fellow gentlemen, merely reminding all, the tone must not go in a certain direction... This is open and honest discussion, please do not allow your frustration and anger at the situation overflow on your fellow TGO members.

Honest answer I have with this plan is this: I am unsure of what it actually does, as both sides have hyped it. One side saying its going to save a ton of $, and the other claiming death panels. Somewhere in the middle is the truth. Let see what it is.

Interesting placing the death of Detroit as the same as Obama care. Yet, as we all know multiple causes created Detroit, including poor politics. Obama care is created by the view of "something needs to be done," due to several causes. Those causes have led us to this. Now we need to figure out what this thing actually does, whether it is good for us, and what to do about it.

My view is mandatory insurance for all - goes against principals of this Country.

Yet, no one has come up with any good solution. When the present system has a situation where the middle income person, who had health insurance, gets hurt, or ill, and then has to declare bankruptcy - there is a problem. Check the bankruptcy roles and you will find over 60% of these are due to medical bills of people who had insurance...

So, we know the present system is very flawed, expensive, and you are at the mercy of the insurance companies. The Obama action tried to change it. Many believe for the worse, some believe for the better. We all know it is a flawed solution. Yet, something has to give...

So- what now, what next, and how to? True we need to fix this, and true we need to do it asap. But if this is not the way to do it, then how?

[Hgunner]

You want to fix healthcare, get the government totally and 100% out of it.

Them getting into in the first place with Medicare-Medicaid is what screwed it up.

Oh and I just posted a article the author made the comparison to Detroit, and I think his points are valid.

Obamacare is just a symptom of a bigger disease.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Hgunner

[Guest Catdaddy]

The problem here should be obvious to all. It is not the fact that the auto industry left Detroit short on jobs, it is also not because the population is largely Black.

It is because of the implementation of liberal "feel-good" policies that don't REALLY work in the REAL world.

When the civil rights movement came to it's fair and logical conclusion, only a generation or two should have leveled the playing field entirely- and would have except for the government's meddling. Replacing the incentive to grow, learn, and prosper with a welfare check (made all the more hideous by rewarding mothers of multiple children with no co-parent with larger checks) has devastated the Black culture by destroying their families. (This of course applies to all races, but in America it IS largely the Black community- let's be honest). There is no "need" for a husband/father, so there are fewer Black men who step up to their duties to their children.

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will feed himself for a lifetime" (or something near to that. You GIVE a man a fish everyday, and the man will NEVER TRY to fish. He'll just wait for the next fish from your hand.

The newly liberated Black culture would have learned to succeed in society- to create wealth and prosperity for themselves instead of waiting on a handout, IF the US Government had allowed them to. Sure, some have, and just as there are the slovenly, criminal, lazy or thrifty, industrious, etc in EVERY group of people, there are Blacks who have stood up and made something of themselves.

(Every successful Black man I ever met DESPISED the welfare system!)

So we are back to the root of most, if not all of the ills in American society- government intervention. I cannot think of a SINGLE NON-CONSTITUTIONAL government involvement in our lives that, had not the government made it into a crisis and stuck their big fat fingers in it (at a great cost to us, always) would not have been rectified by the people themselves, and usually in a better fashion.

It's not the Black man's fault- he can make it as well as any on equal turf.

It's not business' fault- we address their excesses and curb them with our wallets.

INCLUDING THE INSURANCE COMPANIES! Whose profits are minuscule compared to many others- and who, (although a government "option" would drive them out of business)- ARE BENEFITED by this legislation as it stands! (Referring of course to...)

The PEOPLE of America are perfectly able to take care of themselves, and each other, including the weak, sick, and helpless- and we did so for MANY decades without Uncle Sam!

Sure, nothing is ever perfect, and NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO there will always be the poor among you, and people will always get sick and die.

A return to Constitutional government would go a LOOONG way towards solving our problems- FASTER and at a much LOWER COST than with government intervention...

And we would remain FREE MEN.

This bunch in Congress now, and many who have come before them, fix NOTHING!

They only add to our misery, tie our hands to do what we COULD with our own resources, and charge us to screw us over.

Rant over.

For now.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Catdaddy

[Guest gts]

Apparently hgunner, catdaddy and couple of others have the brains and stones to call a spade a spade, and back it up with thought, facts and vigor.

It is race thing. It is a liberal/marxist thing. It is a mixture of stupidity, immorality and political correctness leads to the death of societies thing. Hence, the reason Detroit is the first of many cities that will most likely experience a debilitating internal collapse.

And there are those worried about the tone of responses? About being offensive? Are you kidding me? The lack of being offensive to the obviously brainwashed, pseudo-intellects is what has led this nation on the sure path of destruction that it is on.

Though catdaddy is seemingly correct with his assessment concerning the need to return Constitutional government, it must be recognized that this will only happen after the streets in many US Cities are literally flowing with blood and empty cartridges.

The time for the nonsense is over. The gray area of debate is getting smaller and smaller and becoming a definitive line of divide.

No, obamacare didn't kill Detroit. It baffles me that people can't recognize a comparison/contrast article when they see it. The point is that the practices that are killing Detroit are the the same fundamentals that the obamacare bill is founded on. The long-term result is as predictable as the sun rising in the east tomorrow. This is very simple to comprehend, or at least it should be.

In my opinion, if you are the type can't grasp this concept in its simplicity, which the author did a fine job of relaying in the article, then you are the type will have no problem sacrificing your guns for food when the trucks stop bringing it to the grocery store. And the result of that will be your ensured enslavement and most likely your death.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I don't like that any more than you do, even though I've always had insurance, and will never go without it. They had to do that to eliminate preexisting conditions.

Pre-existing conditions isn't something that should be

forced on any company, insurance or otherwise. Why should an insurance company be liable for someone's

previous condition which was insured by someone else.

Is it right to limit one's or an entity to make a profit.

Where is the reasoning for forcing someone else to assume a libility, when they never had anything to do with it?

[analog_kidd]

Pre-existing conditions isn't something that should be

forced on any company, insurance or otherwise. Why should an insurance company be liable for someone's

previous condition which was insured by someone else.

Is it right to limit one's or an entity to make a profit.

Where is the reasoning for forcing someone else to assume a libility, when they never had anything to do with it?

I agree. If you force insurance companies to accept pre-existing conditions, you have converted them from healthcare insurers to healthcare financers. The way insurance works is, you buy in while healthy, and the collective pay for those who get sick. Forcing them to accept pre-existing conditions will also force them to change their business model, which means premiums go way up for everyone.

[Worriedman]

Is it right to limit one's or an entity to make a profit.

There you go using that ugly word. Bad 6.8:stick:

Of course, a millionaire lawyer funded completely by the public dole his whole life, never having produced a single thing generated by individual effort, would have a hard time understanding such a philosophy as profit. I would have loved to have attended Harvard Law School, just did not quite have the cash, as I had to pay my own way. But I was hampered, being one of six children born to a man who never had a chance to get out of high school, forced to go to work full time to help feed his family at an early age, later in life, working two jobs to give his own children a chance at the educational opportunities he never had. I and my siblings either joined the military to finance college, or worked our way through. Being chained by the fact that we were simply sharecropping white trash, nobody stuck a silver spoon in our mouths. I would surmise that as our raising came from parents and grandparents that served in the Military, or waited at home while their spouses did, people who thought the United States deserved our hard work and support, teaching the next generation to honor and uphold the best principals of the Republic, we see things differently. To this day, sending our own children off to battle to support those ideals.

Perhaps had I been attached to the teat of public assistance, schooled in the mindset of Saul Alinsky, the death of the U.S. tacked to the walls of my upbringing instead of the Grand Old Flag, I could agree with the premise of taking our country down, but somehow, I just can not get there.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Worriedman

[Guest HvyMtl]

Ok. You may not like lawyers. In most cases, lawyers are no where near this fellow. Most have had to earn their way through, or go into severe debt, to become lawyers... (median income for TN lawyers, last I checked was in the 70k range, no where near millionaire status...)

Do not dismiss the lawyers, for they may be your sole line of defense against this law...

Effectively, the present health care coverage situation is awful.

You will fall into 3 categories.

1) You are upper middle class or higher, have $, and health insurance. So when you do have a severe ailment, you can afford what the insurance does not cover, even if they drop you for the mere audacity of getting sick in the first place...

2) You are middle or lower class and have insurance, but cannot afford to cover a severe ailment, placing you into bankruptcy, and forcing others with health insurance to pay higher premiums.

3) you cannot or chose not to have health insurance, and you have a severe ailment, forcing bankruptcy, and forcing everyone with health insurance to pay higher premiums.

The Dems saw this, and did not wait on the market to adjust. Considering the number of deaths and additional costs, it is true action is needed...

However, was this the right move?

There are several claims. But, all I can know for fact are these:

1) Pre-existing conditions get covered, but we do not know at what cost level...

2) Children get coverage, until they are 26, but again, at what price?

3) You cannot be dropped for being "foolish" enough to think an insurance company should pay when you actually get sick. But, again, at what price?

4) Insurance Companies get 30+ million new customers... a Boon for them.

5) Those new customers costs may not be covered by the premiums they pay, increasing the premiums of those presently with coverage... Or is this an excuse to charge more across the board?

6) No limits on health insurance profits

7) Mandatory heath insurance for all citizens...

Unconfirmed claim, the mandatory insurance, across the board, will lower health care costs by huge estimates (30%+ range.) The savings are supposed to be due to far less paperwork... Yet, the law does not mandate less paperwork. It does not create uniform paperwork... So, will these savings actually occur?

It is still unclear as to what else the law does...

I do not see any clause in the Constitution, and its Bill of Rights, stating the government can force the purchase of a product...

I do see the argument this is similar to mandatory car insurance... Except, driving is a privilege, not a right, granted by the States. The only rights any of us have are listed in the Bill of Rights... and they are always in question...

Yet, the Commerce Clause and the "health and welfare" of the citizens will be the route taken to enforce this law... Though again, I do not see forcing the purchase of a product is within the scope...

Ironically, the high collar politically motivated lawyers may be the only ones between us and this law.

Were there not protests and demands for State Attorney Generals, all "uppity" lawyers, to file lawsuits against this law?

Were there not calls to state level politicians write state level laws to block certain parts of the federal law?

Do not forget, were it not for lawyers, this nation of ours might be even more of a police state. Remember this when a police officer wants to search your car, merely due to the fact you were going 3 miles over the posted speed limit...

Edited April 1, 2010 by HvyMtl

[Rightwinger]

Heard a good comeback for conservatives to pursue when they get back control of the house.

In order to reduce rampant crime and thus cut costs on prison systems, mandate that everyone own a handgun. Heard that on Phil Valentine.

I'll add my own analogy's, you all weigh in as you wish. Could even be it's own thread I reckon.

If you already own a handgun, you will not have to change your handgun. If you don't, the government will subsidize your purchase using LE or Mil turn ins. Everyone must have access to handguns.

Everyone must show proof of firearm ownership in order to obtain a student loan or file their taxes.

If you loose your handgun, you will immediately be covered by a local LE agency that will provide you one.

Your handgun can be transferred to any other citizen (portability)

[Oh Shoot]

Heard a good comeback for conservatives to pursue when they get back control of the house. ..

Conservatives will never control the House again.

Republicans maybe, but not conservatives.

- OS

[G27]

Conservatives will never control the House again.

Republicans maybe, but not conservatives.

- OS

Agreed.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

This is but one step in FDR's 2nd Bill of Rights. More to follow...

[Worriedman]

Ok. You may not like lawyers.

Some I do like, then there is Hillary (remember Saul Alinsky is her hero) Timothy Geithner, (‘ol†“I’ll run the tax system but not pay my ownâ€), John Edwards, (isn’t he special?) People give lawyers a bad name I guess.

Got a brother that is an attorney, I helped put him through Vanderbilt Law School. Remember, I said originally that I wish I could have attended Harvard Law School myself, just could not afford it. I do not dislike all lawyers, just the crooked ones. Oh, and the ones who want to kill this Republic.

The point I was making is that the guy I was talking about got it all handed to him, never worked for a thing in his life, now he is ruining and running mine.

[Guest HvyMtl]

Hm. Agreed Worriedman. Though I think you are misnamed. Honestman - Concerned for his nation man - loves his Country man - For some reason, I do not believe worry is your nature. No offense meant.

I too worked my way thru law school and into the debtor's prison... while having cancer. The dean of students was right. He told me to quit, as the hiring partners looked at the cancer as a block to hiring. Seems I was a threat to the firms' health insurance... and they looked at the cancer as an inability to work the hours required from a new hire... So, my crowning achievement has become a dead albatross around my neck.

Makes me not like the overly fortunate ones, who do not understand the average citizen... or the concept of hardship.

So. We have a law which the repercussions of are beyond clear. We know its going to cost us more $, is unclear if it will achieve its goals of cost saving and coverage, allows for the health insurance companies to have record profits, and forces an UnConstitutional act on the citizens... but, again, its full effect is unclear...

How DOES this get fixed?

As for Harvard - no- Yale is better...

As for the Republicans... Well. They have been acting more like a party lost, than a party with answers. I do hope their replacement is more realistic.

Edited April 1, 2010 by HvyMtl