Employers say NO to guns- got any sources for "ammo"?

[Guest Catdaddy]

So, I'm a Pioneer. I began carrying my pistol, concealed, to work. No company policy (written or verbal) against it, and one of the owners knew I would do so.

The other two have outvoted him. So, this policy will stand unless I can convince two men who I BELIEVE are intelligent and reasonable, that they should reconsider.

Their concerns, as I understand them are:

1) The insurance company told them their liability exposure was going to increase- especially in the form of a possible lawsuit if anyone was shot while I was on duty, and somehow this goes double for "accidental discharge" in one of their vehicles.

2) The company lawyer also expressed a concern about increased exposure to liability.

What I wish to do is to show what a small issue that is compared to the liability they are exposed to daily as a chemical distributor. Throw in the "office patter" that has cost so many companies their all.... slips n falls.... plus the fact that if I get robbed/injured as a result of being unarmed, I could still sue for that! (Not that I would....) Stats for number of people robbed/assaulted on duty, number prevented by CCP holders, that sort of thing, would help. No, I don't want anyone to do my homework for me, but if you know where a juicy piece of info is that would help, I'd appreciate the link.

Also I understand the NRA keeps a team of lawyers for just such a purpose, and my supporting employer is a member. I will be rejoining soon- I hope they can keep me and Dad sorted out this time. Any links to available liability coverage would be appreciated.

Last thing- when I started carrying, several others expressed a desire to do so as well. Some are ....not so astute, shall we say.... and they worry about them. I told them to require, say, an ADVANCED CCP class for all who would like to carry- that would weed out the questionable, or at least educate them, and show responsibility as well.

So, there it is, my friends. I need to convince my employers- a father and son trio, that they have nothing to fear and that MAYBE it would even be a good thing for them.

Thanks for any help. I'll update as I gather my defense.

[bubbadavis]

I suggest trying to sit down and just discuss things with them. You will have a difficult time finding hard data as to HCP holders preventing injuries, robberies, etc. Many of them will go unreported - and especially underreported by the media.

I have always heard that a self-defense shooting is considered an intentional act. I don't think insurance companies like to pay out for intentional acts. That being said, I am not a lawyer and don't play one on TV.

Make it clear to them that you would only have your weapon out in a life-or-death situation.

Maybe you can convince them of a policy along the lines of "no weapons without permission from the owner". My company has a written policy along those lines. Others at the office carry and the unwritten rule with me is that I have to show off any new toys that I pick up!

Best of luck with the owners.

[Currently]

TN is an employment at will state.

This is a battle that I personally would not choose to fight.

Win the battle but lose the war.

[Guest 270win]

I wouldn't have told anyone. Slick's advice of don't ask don't tell works well.

[Krull]

TN is an employment at will state.

This is a battle that I personally would not choose to fight.

Win the battle but lose the war.

I agree maybe you should have used the don't ask don't tell policy.

[Guest Gene83]

At this point, I doubt that you will be able to fight it successfully.

From the employer's standpoint and more importantly their legal counsel, if they say "yes, it's OK" and you turn out to be the one in one quadrillion or whatever statistic of permit holders that actually goes ballistic with a gun, then they gave you permission to bring it on the premises and that dramatically increases their liability in the case. The general consensus is that usually if there is a lawsuit, their pockets will be deeper than yours. You can try, but I don't see them changing their position.

[Guest don_m]

Keep in mind that the attorney's objective is to protect the company. The perception is that if they can say "we told them not to do that," there is some degree of limitation of liability. When this question is asked, the answer will pretty much always be "no." If you're fortunate enough to work at a company with no such policy, carry deeply concealed and tell NO ONE -- word will get around to someone who will be freaked out and head off to HR.

[Guest blankman]

It really sucks sometimes, but a lot of companies have these type of policies due to insurance reasons

[Guest .45]

So, I'm a Pioneer. I began carrying my pistol, concealed, to work. No company policy (written or verbal) against it...

no disrespect intended...but honestly, I think you "shot yourself in the foot", so to speak...

there was no policy in place against carry... if you had just kept your carrying to yourself, you could still be doing so right now, with no one the wiser, and no company drama to deal with.

now, you most likely will not be able to carry...and they may very well institute a policy prohibiting it.

sometimes it's MUCH better to just keep things to yourself...

.45

[mikegideon]

I wouldn't have told anyone. Slick's advice of don't ask don't tell works well.

Bingo.

[DaveTN]

The liability issue is real; therefore you won’t win. They knowingly let you carry that gun and you shoot a co-worker, either accidentally or on purpose and they will be sued.

I have always argued that this issue and businesses posting is because of liability and has nothing to do with guns.

If the state would pass legislation that puts all of the reasonability on you and none of the reasonability on the business owner; I doubt it would be a big deal. But I doubt that will happen because the lawyers don’t care who is at fault; they just need a payday. The business is the deep pockets.

You can’t make the argument that an “event†is unlikely. If that was the case you wouldn’t need to carry a gun.

You put them in the trick bag when you told them.

[Guest Catdaddy]

I appreciate all the comments, but I think some of you missed an important part of this whole thing.

ONE of the owners and I, with others, constantly discuss the state of affairs in the world today, and it has been planned and in the works for all of us, including the owner, to obtain a CCP and carry.

The surprise was that the two other owners were not on board, and that they made their decision based on limited facts, and without investigation of ways to deal with any negative aspects. This is what I expect to present to them.

Yes, I have been advised that if they continue to say NO, to do what I will and be extremely secretive about it, including leaving my fellow believers (and the cooperative owner) in the dark.

I would rather try first to persuade them, as I would rather carry with permission than without. If they don't change their position, I will deal with that decision when it comes.

It would definitely mean downscaling my carry gun.

What saddens me is that my opinion of these men as men who could be counted on to deal with the forthcoming ****estorm in ways that help insure survival of us all as individuals, not just the company as an entity, is severely reduced. They both have no problem making sure that their wives are armed at home, but are convinced (at least for now) that this courtesy should not be extended to those who work in somewhat dangerous areas of larger cities on their behalf. (The killing of the locksmith in a TN town comes to mind quickly).

We shall see what becomes of my efforts, and time and circumstances may also effect their opinions.

Now that I am at this point, some pointers to info to support my case would be greatly appreciated, as it is way past "don't ask, don't tell".

Thanks, friends, for your opinions.