American Snipers Go Magnum

March 23, 2010

Got this link from the USMC Scout/Sniper Association Site.

June 18, 2009: The U.S. Army has ordered 38.4 million rounds of .300 Winchester magnum ammunition for its newly modified M-24 sniper rifles, as well as similar SOCOMs Mk13 models. The new ammo will cost about $1.30 per round. The .300 Winchester magnum will be ordered in minimum lots of 56,160 rounds (117 boxes of 480 rounds each). The entire 38.4 million rounds will last a while.

All this is in response to requests from snipers for a longer range weapon, but not one as bulky and heavy as the 30 pound .50 caliber rifle (which is good to about 2,000 meters). Thus the army is modifying existing M24 rifles to fire the more powerful .300 Winchester Magnum round. It was felt that this gave the snipers all the additional range they needed, without requiring a much heavier rifle. SOCOM has been using this approach since the early 1990s.

The calls were loudest from snipers operating in Afghanistan, where U.S. Army and Marine Corps shooters wanted a sniper rifle that can consistently get kills out to 1,800 meters. The current 7.62mm round was good only to about 800 meters. The 300 Winchester magnum is a more powerful, but not much larger, round than the current 7.62mm one. By replacing the barrel and receiver of the $6,700 M24 sniper rifle, for about $4,000, you can fire the .300 Winchester Magnum round. This is longer (at 7.62 x 67mm) than the standard 7.62x51mm round, and is good out to 1,200 meters. An improved version of the round is expected to extend that range another 200 meters or so.

There was another option, and that was to replace the barrel and receiver of the M24 sniper rifles to handle the .338 (8.6mm) Lapua Magnum round. Thus you still have a 17 pound sniper rifle, but with a round that can hit effectively out to about 1,600 meters. British snipers in Iraq, and especially Afghanistan, have found the Lapua Magnum round does the job at twice the range of the standard 7.62x51mm round. The 8.6mm round entered use in the early 1990s, and became increasingly popular with police and military snipers. Dutch snipers have used this round in Afghanistan with much success, and have a decade of experience with these larger caliber rifles. British snipers in Afghanistan are also using the new round, having converted many of their 7.62mm sniper rifles. Recognizing the popularity of the 8.6mm round, Barrett, the pioneer in 12.7mm sniper rifles, came out with a 15.5 pound version of its rifle, chambered for the 8.6mm. But the U.S. preferred the lighter .300 Winchester magnum solution.

This is not the first time the U.S. Army has quickly responded to sniper needs. Two years ago, in response to requests from snipers operating in urban areas of Iraq, the U.S. Army began issuing the M110 SASS (Semi-Automatic Sniper System). Urban snipers often have multiple targets, at relatively short ranges. They needed a semiautomatic rifle. Previously, many snipers have had success using tuned up M-14s (from the 1960s) as sniper rifles. While semi-automatic and rugged, the M-14 wasn't designed to be a sniper rifle. The M110 was a better semi-automatic sniper rifle, since it is inherently more reliable and accurate. As far back as World War II, it was known that there were many situations where a semi-automatic sniper rifle would come in handy. But it's taken over half a century to solve the reliability and accuracy problems.

The M110 is a based on the AR-10 rifle. The U.S. Navy has been buying a similar weapon, the SR25. This is also known as the Mk11 Sniper Rifle System (SRS). These new semi-automatic sniper rifles are 7.62mm weapons based on the designs of M-16 creator, Gene Stoner. The basis for the M-16 was the AR-15, and a 7.62mm version of that weapon was called the AR-10. About half the parts in the SR25 are interchangeable with those in the M-16. The Stoner sniper rifles achieved its high accuracy partly by using a 20 inch heavy floating barrel. The "floating" means that the barrel is attached only to the main body of the rifle to reduce resonance (which throws off accuracy.)

The M110 weighs 17.3 pounds in combat, and about 70 pounds with all components of the system. The M110 can use a ten or twenty round magazine. The 40.5 inch long rifle can have a six inch tube attached to the barrel, which reduces the noise and flash made when the rifle fires, and largely eliminates nearby dust rising into the air, which often gives away the snipers position.

The M110 will gradually replace many of the bolt-action M24s, while the remaining M24s will be converted to fire the .300 Winchester Magnum, for those snipers working somewhere, like Afghanistan, where more range is needed..

March 23, 2010

I thought that the Army had been using the .300 win mag for awhile already. Oh well, I guess they got it now. Probably would be better served with the .338 Lapua, but they don't ask my opinion.

March 23, 2010

Just seems overkill for the limited number of snipers.

March 23, 2010

I say give them whatever they want.

March 23, 2010

I say give them whatever they will use.

I've been reading a lengthy article from Vanity Fair about a talented 47-year-old sniper that I thought ya'll would dig.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2010/02/sniper-201002

Edited March 23, 2010 by jackdm3

323ssplt · March 23, 2010

Hey, as a Marine Sniper I feel I have a little bit of authority to wieigh in on this matter.

First, we have been BEGGING for a longer range round than the 7.62 for years. The Army had a great idea years ago when they created the M24 and its ability to use the 300 Win Mag. However, it is maybe a 1200 yard cartridge at best. When I worked with the SEAL snipers, they loved their custom 300's but still wanted something more.

That is why the Marine Corps is actively looking at replacing the 7.62 and the 50 BMG with a 338 Lapua M40A4. A couple of snipers I know have used the 338 Lapuaoverseas with good effect and we are currently waiting MARCORSYSCOM's "evaluation" results.

However, I'm happy that the Army is retrofitting their M24's to the 300. It's better than the 7.62 hands down.

As to the number of rounds ordered being an "overkill" crunch the numbers. Just to remain proficient, each Marine sniper, school trained or not is allotted over 1000 rounds per year. That equates to approx. 15 snipers per battalion, something like 20 battiolions for the Marine Corps. That's 300000 rounds just for the Marine Corps and just for sustainment. The Army has far many more snipers than the Corps.

March 23, 2010

32ssplt, I'm glad we have somebody here who can tell us about rifles. What models do you see on the racks at good gun stores that are very decent deer rifles at near-sniper quality?

Smith · March 23, 2010

Why not bump up to .338 Lapua instead of the .300 Win Mag?

323ssplt · March 23, 2010

32ssplt, I'm glad we have somebody here who can tell us about rifles. What models do you see on the racks at good gun stores that are very decent deer rifles at near-sniper quality?

The off the shelf rifles that I see and use that are near or ar sniper rifle quality are the savage bolt guns. Now remeber that the Marine Corps will not quantafy a rifle as a "sniper rifle" unless it holds a MOA or better. I personally shoot an older savage 110 tactical that will shoot 1/2 to 1/4 MOA all day long with match ammo and will group right at 1 MOA with WWB. I also shoot a Remington 700P in 338 Lapua.

As to "deer" rifles.....I recently bought my wife a Ruger M77 Compact in 260 that groups about .75 MOA with 120 grain Federal Fusion.

Hope that helps. If you need/want more please ask. I've been doing this for years but have been a little absent from this sight for awhile. Just now getting back into "serious" shooting.

March 23, 2010

That's my point. I don't have the stats on the Army's needs, but if they have five times that of the Marines, we're talking a 20 year supply for a round that may become discontinued.

I am NOT saying we should short change our brothers in the field.

March 23, 2010

They'll have training ammo for awhile, jack.

March 23, 2010

Hope that helps. If you need/want more please ask. I've been doing this for years but have been a little absent from this sight for awhile. Just now getting back into "serious" shooting.

I hope you're kidding. I can't think of a form of shooting more serious than sniping!

323ssplt · March 23, 2010

Why not bump up to .338 Lapua instead of the .300 Win Mag?

When I went through sniper school, I asked this very same question. The answer I received at the time was price. At the time the average 338 Lapua round was $5 per round, the average 300 Win Mag was $2 per round. And this was the answer I got from both the Marine Corps sniper school at Stone Bay, and when I "audited" the Army National Guard sniper school at Camp Robinson.

Obviously, the Army has many more sniper rifle systems to feed than the Marine Corps. So, I see why they went/stayed with the 300. Like I said earlier, the Corps is still "deciding" but a buddy of mine who was part of the testing said the 338 Lapua was the hands down winner for the Corps, if we can ever get it accepted

323ssplt · March 23, 2010

I hope you're kidding. I can't think of a form of shooting more serious than sniping!

I wasn't kidding. I took a little time off from pulling the trigger. Hell, fact is I just plum got burned out. But, hey I'm back now.

March 23, 2010

32ssplt, I'm glad we have somebody here who can tell us about rifles. What models do you see on the racks at good gun stores that are very decent deer rifles at near-sniper quality?

Remington 5R

March 23, 2010

323ssplt.. Semper Fi from a former FMF Corpsman... Bob Depp is a good friend of mine.. He should be here in Oak Ridge for the Tenn Long Range Reginals.. in May.

323ssplt · March 23, 2010

That's my point. I don't have the stats on the Army's needs, but if they have five times that of the Marines, we're talking a 20 year supply for a round that may become discontinued.
I am NOT saying we should short change our brothers in the field.

Jack, the numbers I put out there were for sustainment. During my last deployment, just to remain "proficient" I personally probably put 5000 rounds down range in a six month period. And most of that was out of my Mark 11. Plus I had several hundred "fresh" rounds available to me and my team. A combat load for us would include our regular 5.56 rounds, something like 300 per man except for the SAW gunner who carried 1000, 10 HEDP 40mm grenades for our two M203 grenade launchers, 5 15 round mags for our M9's and I carried 80 match grade 7.62 rounds for my sniper rifle, plus my ATL carried another 60 to 80.

323ssplt · March 23, 2010

323ssplt.. Semper Fi from a former FMF Corpsman... Bob Depp is a good friend of mine.. He should be here in Oak Ridge for the Tenn Long Range Reginals.. in May.

Semper Fi, DOC.

I need to get back into shooting comps. I've only shot one in the last couple of years, and have read your posts with envy.

Only problem is time and money. My wife is deploying to Iraq in January as the final unit to assist the pullout, and she (sigh) has been demanding all of my free time.

323ssplt · March 23, 2010

PS, what are the May dates. Maybe I can squeeze some time into my schedule. What do ya'll shoot, High Power, F-class, etc?

March 23, 2010

I got palma gun you can shoot

March 23, 2010

PS, what are the May dates. Maybe I can squeeze some time into my schedule. What do ya'll shoot, High Power, F-class, etc?

2010 Long Range Highpower Rifle Regional Championship

May 14, 15, and 16, 2010

Oak Ridge, Tennessee

An NRA Registered Tournament

Sponsor: Oak Ridge Sportsmenâ€™s Association

Rules: All current NRA highpower rules will apply.

Eligibility: Open to all NRA members and members of NRA affiliated clubs.

Entry Fees: $50.00 for all individual matches (Matches 1-6); $35.00 for Sat individual

matches (Matches 1-3); $25.00 for Sun individual matches (Matches 4-5).

Fees include NRA registration ($9 per competitor).

Friday Sight in period fee is $5.00

Make checks payable to: Oak Ridge Sportsmenâ€™s Association

Entries: Send entries to:

Larry Sparks, 10087 Double Tree Rd, Knoxville, TN 37932

larrysparks@chartertn.net 865-777-4696 (h), 865-643-0672 ©

Advanced entries are suggested.

Entries are limited to 88 individuals.

Cancellations prior to the commencement of firing on Sat. May 15, 2010

will be refunded in full.

No refunds will be made after firing commences on Sat. May 15, 2010.

Location: The ORSA range is located on the Oak Ridge Turnpike (St. Rt. 95) 3.5 miles

west of the intersection of Illinois Ave. (St. Rt. 95) and the Turnpike.

Accommodations: Oak Ridge motels are noted on the ORSA website:

http://orsa.nxs.net/

Squadding: Squadding for individual matches will begin at 7:30 A.M. Saturday.

Classification: The NRA long-range classification system will be used for all matches.

Divisions: There will be two divisions: palma rifle and any rifle. Five or more entries

are required to make an award in a Division. A service rifle division will

be added if there is sufficient interest. Competitors must declare division

to the statistical officer before firing begins on Saturday, May 10, 2008.

Change of division after this time will result in ineligibility for open or

aggregate awards.

Rifles: Rifles are defined in rules 3.1, 3.1.1, 3.1.2, 3.1.3 for service rifles, rule 3.2

for any rifle, rule 3.3.3 for Palma rifle, and rule 3.4 for F-Class. F-Class

will not be considered for Regional Championship Awards.

Rule 9.1 does not apply.

Scoring & Pits: All competitors shall perform scoring and pit duties.

Ammunition: Rule 3.17, provided by the competitor.

Targets: The LR target will be used at 1000 yards. (LR-FC will be used for

F-Class)

Challenges: A fee of $2.00 will be collected in advance of each challenge.

Additional: The management reserves the right to refuse any entry or cause the

withdrawal of any competitor who endangers or interferes in any way with

the harmony of the match. We also reserve the right to change the match

program without notice if deemed advisable. Competitors and spectators

assume all risk of accident and loss of property.

Course of Fire: Friday, May 14, 2010

Range will be open for sight in from 1 to 4 pm.

Saturday, May 15, 2010, 10:00 A.M.

Match 1: 1000 yd. Prone Any Rifle / Any Sight, unlimited sighting shots