Posted Signs and Legal Issues

[Guest Glock23ForMe]

For the record: I have already searched and didn't find anything, although I know there is one, and I was wondering about this.

I have read the TCA about the signs prohibiting firearms in certain establishments. If the sign is not a legal sign, is it still illegal to carry into the establishment provided you have a HCP and are within the rest of the laws.

Also, any loopholes within this rule applying to: Malls, etc.

[Oh Shoot]

For the record: I have already searched and didn't find anything, although I know there is one, and I was wondering about this.

I have read the TCA about the signs prohibiting firearms in certain establishments. If the sign is not a legal sign, is it still illegal to carry into the establishment provided you have a HCP and are within the rest of the laws.

Also, any loopholes within this rule applying to: Malls, etc.

By the time you get your permit, things likely will be clearer than they are at present.

- OS

[Erik88]

If it is a properly posted sign then you can't carry there. If it just says no guns allowed, or no concealed carry then you are allowed to carry there, though obviously you won't want to open carry there.

I don't know of any loopholes but someone else might correct me on that one.

Ohshoot will probably chime on on this, he is pretty resourceful when it comes to topics regarding the law.

[Erik88]

If it is a properly posted sign then you can't carry there. If it just says no guns allowed, or no concealed carry then you are allowed to carry there, though obviously you won't want to open carry there.

I don't know of any loopholes but someone else might correct me on that one.

Ohshoot will probably chime on on this, he is pretty resourceful when it comes to topics regarding the law.

[Erik88]

sorry for the double post, and yep OS already beat me to it

[nightrunner]

you can carry anywhere except where alcohol is sold for consumption on site. IF they dont have a correct sign up.

also cant carry in federal buildings, courthouses, or school property.

however, if they ask you to leave, you must leave or you can be charged with trespassing.

and there are some people that believe concealed is concealed...

[Guest jackdm3]

you can carry anywhere except where alcohol is sold for consumption on site. IF they dont have a correct sign up.

also cant carry in federal buildings, courthouses, or school property.

however, if they ask you to leave, you must leave or you can be charged with trespassing.

and there are some people that believe concealed is concealed...

I heard you could carry in your car to pick up your rugrats, while staying within.

[Oh Shoot]

...If it just says no guns allowed, or no concealed carry then you are allowed to carry there, though obviously you won't want to open carry there...

Geez, why not open carry there, if as you say "you are allowed to carry there"?

The fact is that "substantially similar" has never been defined, even by TN Attorney General opinion. Hence, would be up to arresting LEO and consequently, a judge, in each case.

The good news is that we have yet to hear of anyone being charged with carrying past a sign in a business.

The park statute exactly defines the exact wording, and even the minimum size, of a sign, and there has been at least one case of a guy charged with that.

Right now, you can't carry "within the confines of a building open to the public where liquor, wine or other alcoholic beverages that sells liquor for consumption" period, whether posted or not.

There is a bill currently pending which looks likely to pass that will simplify all this by specifying exact sign wording for ALL situations. (although I guess the park statute will stand as is).

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

you can carry anywhere except where alcohol is sold for consumption on site. IF they dont have a correct sign up...

I'll be sure and tell the judge that you said so, should I get popped.

- OS

[nightrunner]

I heard you could carry in your car to pick up your rugrats, while staying within.

correct. I believe though that it was at least highly suggested if not mandatory that you hide it for example in the console or glove box before entering property, and not have it on your person or visible.

not sure on that one as it will be a LONG time before I will personally run into that one.

[nightrunner]

I'll be sure and tell the judge that you said so, should I get popped.

- OS

did you read the rest of my post??

what else is off limits?

EDIT: maybe I should reword that one,

you can carry anywhere IF they dont have a correct sign up. except where alcohol is sold for consumption on site.

then continue with the rest of the post.

Edited March 23, 2010 by nightrunner

[Guest tennesseevolz]

let me pose this question- I drive to knoxville for work, and I cc my 1911, and check into a hotel- the hotel has a full svc bar inside, can i carry? (I think taking it into the hotel is better than leaving it in the parking structure, so i do take it in and leave it loaded during my stay.)

[Oh Shoot]

did you read the rest of my post??..

Yes.

Just how "substantially dissimilar" does a sign have to be to make it not binding? You seem to know.

There is no mention of this "trespass" thing everybody touts in the weapons statutes. Criminal trespass is a separate offense entirely, and has nothing to do with whether you are armed or not.

Not to say you might not be charged with it, but you could also be charged with carrying in a posted establishment, too. The owner could just call a cop rather than telling you to leave, eh?

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

let me pose this question- I drive to knoxville for work, and I cc my 1911, and check into a hotel- the hotel has a full svc bar inside, can i carry? (I think taking it into the hotel is better than leaving it in the parking structure, so i do take it in and leave it loaded during my stay.)

Bar is generally considered separate establishment for this purpose.

Like a restaurant/bar in a mall, or same in a Bass Pro.

Let's put it this way, no body has ever been charged with it that we know of.

An even grayer area would be actual hotel room with a self service bar, eh?

But that's generally conceded as the room becoming your home for your stay. "Castle" doctrine and all.

- OS

Edited March 23, 2010 by OhShoot

[nightrunner]

Yes.

Just how "substantially dissimilar" does a sign have to be to make it not binding? You seem to know.

- OS

honestly I always look to see if they quoted TCA law or not. if not, not legal. if so its a legal sign. never seen a legal sign though.

[Oh Shoot]

honestly I always look to see if they quoted TCA law or not. if not, not legal. if so its a legal sign. never seen a legal sign though.

Again, I hope YOUR opinion of an undefined statute term exonerates you if charged.

The statute does not say the TCA law must be quoted.

Any judge could simply deem that the intent of the sign was clear, that it was "substantially similar" enough.

- OS

Edited March 23, 2010 by OhShoot

[Guest 270win]

You would not be breaking any law, if the signs does not meet statute requirements, but you can still be asked to leave should someone notice your handgun.

I have not heard of anyone actually going to court over 'proper' or 'improper' signs...i'm guessing b/c either people who are seen with a gun are asked to take the gun to the car and do so...and because most people conceal. It is not like you go through TSA security lines to go to the dept store or grocery store. This is a typical 'feel good' law. You risk max $500 fine over the 'feel good' proper sign statute. I personally don't lose sleep over it...your choice.

[Oh Shoot]

... You risk max $500 fine over the 'feel good' proper sign statute.

And suspension or revocation of HCP.

- OS

[Guest Dean Wormer]

Do you guys really go out of your way to LOOK for a sign?

[Parrothead]

Do you guys really go out of your way to LOOK for a sign?

yes....i like my permit and right to carry

[Fallguy]

But your not supposed to have to search Hi and Low for a sign....there are supposed to be posted in a way that it is "plainly visible"

But as OS said....we have yet to here of person charged with such a violation.

Maybe another reason is because a violation is a misdemeanor. Unless a misdemeanor occurs in an officers presence, there isn't much he can do about it. So it would be up to the property owner to pursue the legal case, assuming you were back outside and even decided to hang around until LE arrived.

I imagine most property owner's just want you and/or your gun out of their place and don't want to take a day off to go to court.

[Oh Shoot]

..But as OS said....we have yet to here of person charged with such a violation.

Yah, but I wonder, FG...there are an awful lot towns in TN, so we can't say it has not happened, and maybe more than we think. And there are an awful lot of HCPs revoked each year, and I don't think there's a database of the reasons, is there?

Maybe another reason is because a violation is a misdemeanor. Unless a misdemeanor occurs in an officers presence, there isn't much he can do about it. So it would be up to the property owner to pursue the legal case, assuming you were back outside and even decided to hang around until LE arrived.

I imagine most property owner's just want you and/or your gun out of their place and don't want to take a day off to go to court.

Then again, if an owner spots your gun, all he has to do is call a cop and point you out, then he doesn't have to do anything else. I'd venture to say there are going to be even more owners who feel resentful that they have to post a legal sign to prohibit carry rather than be able to rely on the blanket ban ruling, and might be more prone to do it.

- OS

[Fallguy]

Yah, but I wonder, FG...there are an awful lot towns in TN, so we can't say it has not happened, and maybe more than we think. And there are an awful lot of HCPs revoked each year, and I don't think there's a database of the reasons, is there?

True, never meant to imply that no one has ever been charged.

There is a database that shows how many HCP are revoked, but I don't think it gives any specific reasons.

Then again, if an owner spots your gun, all he has to do is call a cop and point you out, then he doesn't have to do anything else. I'd venture to say there are going to be even more owners who feel resentful that they have to post a legal sign to prohibit carry rather than be able to rely on the blanket ban ruling, and might be more prone to do it.

- OS

True again, but I still feel the LEO is more apt to tell you to leave than charge, especially if there is any question on if the sign is valid.

Now if HB31255 passes and there is no doubt what a proper sign is and a place post such a proper sign, I doubt I would carry past it.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Fallguy