Here's your future, Goodbye land of the free

[Guest HvyMtl]

I did see the spitting incident - the guy spits on the Congress member - the Congress member berates him for doing so. Seems no Cop saw it (the one on camera had his back turned.) To have an arrest made in this instance, the Congress member would have had to press charges. He declined.

AS for the Worriedman point, yeah, I can see it, but too many events occurred to say it was the actions of convenient "plants."

And the Republican screaming "baby killer" on the floor? What crap.

As for Barney's Response to the Tea Party? What crap, too.

Wish we had alternative choices to send to Congress instead of the left or right wing of the same Vulture... This dual party system is failing us, and will be the downfall of this Proud Nation...

[Guest redbarron06]

And the Republican screaming "baby killer" on the floor? What crap.

...

What is crap about that? This bill allows for public funds for abortion and no EO can stop the law? Now I have not seen this interatcion so dont know the context of what he said or how he said it but it is just as true as the congresman telling BHO "you lie".

[Guest Gene83]

Troll is the word you were looking for.

+1 Mark@Sea, as usual dead on topic. Federal government handles foreign relations, maintains civilian control of the standing Army and I'll add can assist the states in building the Interstate Highway system so that they don't end at the borders...

Other than that, civil infrastructure such as fire, police and education is the States responsibility. We need to remember that as well when calls for a Constitutional Convention or Opt out plans continue to grow. The States need to take their responsibilities back and be a heck of a lot more proactive in what they do as well.

We need more signs along Tennessee Highways telling us which watershed we are entering.....need I say more?

Actually, I'm not a troll or a plant. Trolls seldom contribute money to a forum. Our politics may differ. If I offended you, and in the heat of the moment I may very well have, then I apologize.

I will support your right to bear arms as I am sure you will support mine. And perhaps, we can both support each others right to have an opinion.

Gene

[Rightwinger]

Perhaps post some of that "gun commentary" you talked about in your first 21 posts first then step into the groove of the place. Timing is everything and we have had more than our fair share of shills and moonbats step in for a bit but usually move along.

Thanks for the Benefactor submission. Post away, the membership will definitely respond to your "opinion".

[Oh Shoot]

Alex Jones is now claiming that the big insurance companies are behind this, that they are the ones that wrote the bill.. his claim to this is because their stocks have risien in value.

They're the quietest faction in the whole equation.

Haven't heard one CEO spitting blood and vitriol on tube like so many others.

Cats that swallowed the canaries, I'd say, at least for some time.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

If one were to be a savvy politician, what better way to marginalize your opposition (Tea Party) than to have a plant run up to a public parade of individuals and scream a few invectives, and possibly spit on the parade?...

Gives me pause to wonder if it really happened, or was it conveniently manufactured.

If you mean the Dems, no way.

Unless the Tea Baggers get big enough, which is unlikely, the Dems like them.

The GOP does NOT. Though the Republicans speak highly of them at every opportunity, citing all the "shared foundations of principle" (and other horse pucky) the Tea Baggers are NOT Republicans, and the GOP is well aware of it.

- OS

[Worriedman]

I did see the spitting incident - the guy spits on the Congress member - the Congress member berates him for doing so. Seems no Cop saw it (the one on camera had his back turned.) To have an arrest made in this instance, the Congress member would have had to press charges. He declined.

AS for the Worriedman point, yeah, I can see it, but too many events occurred to say it was the actions of convenient "plants."

And the Republican screaming "baby killer" on the floor? What crap.

As for Barney's Response to the Tea Party? What crap, too.

Wish we had alternative choices to send to Congress instead of the left or right wing of the same Vulture... This dual party system is failing us, and will be the downfall of this Proud Nation...

I remember only too well watching the hordes of greeters from our young men coming back from Viet Nam, being spat on and called "baby killers" as they put feet back on U.S. soil. I abhorred that type of action then, and still do.

Having been in on setting up several Tea Party events, and having spoken at several more, I can promise it is not the intent of the folks who work to get a conservative message out to act like that.

If the count of people who were against this Bill were some minor portion of the population it would be one thing, but to have a pretty healthy majority doing everything they could to keep it from happening in the "In your face, we are the ruling elite" tone that it occurred, I suspect we have not seen a tithe of the anger to be expressed that is coming.

When they try to shove immigration "reform" and Cap and Trade down the country's throat in the same manner, expect the rhetoric to advance in volume and viperitude. Pelosi and Co. have promised to cut the locks, jump the fence, break any rule to get at the socialist nirvana they see as being best for us. Nothing good can come of this road to control, but here we go.

[Worriedman]

If you mean the Dems, no way.

Unless the Tea Baggers get big enough, which is unlikely, the Dems like them.

The GOP does NOT. Though the Republicans speak highly of them at every opportunity, citing all the "shared foundations of principle" (and other horse pucky) the Tea Baggers are NOT Republicans, and the GOP is well aware of it.

- OS

I truly hope that you are being sarcastic in that first line, Democrats are just as vile and opportunistic as the Republicans, but to put anything above or beyond the scope of their perfidy is disingenuous at best.

And for a Progressive, which movement has it hands firmly on the wheel of the Ship of State at the moment, nothing is off limits, as long as it suits the true goal.

I take particular umbrage to your Chris Mathewsesq denigration of the Tea Party movement. In the first one we organized in Jackson, we gathered over $6,500.00 in donations of goods and dollars for shipment of socks, batteries and such needed items to our troops overseas. As far as I am concerned the term you used is like harking a big 'ol luggie and spitting it right in my face. I have never attended a function of the Tea Party that did not specifically stand for our Second Amendment Rights, something I find lacking in any Democratic venue.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Worriedman

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I think that use of the phrase is disgusting, also. Using a

slur like that just shows a lack of regard for a group

actually trying to induce change, rather than doing

something constructive. Instead OS, why not find a

cause to get behind, instead of joining the ridicule

crowd? At least you could say you tried.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

The democrats and republicans are threatened by the Tea

Party movement, as they should be. It will affect change

in one of the party to more reflect what this country has

stood for since the beginning. I just don't see that as

bad. If you don't think they will be effective, that's fine,

but Are you doing anything? They are. They have standing

because they made up of people like you and I.

Maybe you won't support them, but I sure will. I guess

that makes me a tea bagger, too.

[Oh Shoot]

I truly hope that you are being sarcastic in that first line, Democrats are just as vile and opportunistic as the Republicans, but to put anything above or beyond the scope of their perfidy is disingenuous at best.

Absolutely NOT being sarcastic.

The Tea Party is the Dem's best friend right now. Unless it actually gets big enough, or the GOP is able to trick the Tea Party into believing that they are "the same", the Donkeys realize it is more divisive than unifying to the Elephants.

Remember, the polls show that something approaching 70% of the voting population wants ALL incumbents out of Congress, not just Dems. The GOP fears the Tea folks (it's hard to call it a "party", yet).

I take particular umbrage to your Chris Mathewsesq denigration....

Actually, it was innocent usage. I just made nice about it in another thread, where I just said:

"Oh, excuse me all over the place.

I guess I watch FOX Red Eye too much.

I thought it was actually normal term, since the sending of actual tea bags to DC and whatnot."

Really, I thought it was at worst a lighthearted way y'all referred to your own selves.

- OS

[Worriedman]

It is a derisive term used by Keith Olbermann and Chris Mathews to belittle folks that got tired of the Democrats and Republicans, got off their hinneys and decided to get involved.

It is particularly offensive.

The movement itself is far more Libertarian leaning than towards either the Dems or Republicans. We venerate the Constitution, neither of the two major parties give it more than lip service. It is simply an assemblage of like minded individuals who are willing to stand for our Founders vision of what a Republic should be. If either of the parties want to come over and listen, and move their ideology towards that vein of thinking, great, but neither of them speaks for me at the moment, so I am trying to find a place where the thinking of Lamar Alexander or Mike McWherter does not hold sway.

The Tea Party is the Dem's best friend right now.

They wish. Re the enemy of my enemy is my friend. In the next vote, there will not be Tea Party candidates, we must first move the Democrats out. Lots of buyers remorese at the moment, wait till the "working familiies" figure out the bait and switch that has just been pulled on them. Get the Dems out, then we can work on taking over the Republican Party.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Worriedman

[Oh Shoot]

...It is particularly offensive...

I apologized.

Again?

I apologize.

The movement itself is far more Libertarian leaning than towards either the Dems or Republicans. .

I understand that.

And that's why the Dems are digging it a helluva lot more than the GOP.

I think you'll have to admit that if the Tea Party gets enough bucks to run a bunch of independents under your banner, or under the Libertarian or Constitution party or whatever, you are going to take more votes from the GOP slate than from the Dem slate. You may say you lean neither way, but I assure you are far far far from the Dems. The Republicans are the ones trying to make nice to you; the Dems know they ain't winning you over.

- OS

[Mark@Sea]

what then, is the answer, OS? You rail against the GOP more than you do the socialists, and now rail against the only true citizens movement, which incidentally is doing a halfway decent job of reforming the GOP back to it's conservative roots.

Pick a course and stick with it, this circular argument makes me dizzy.

[Oh Shoot]

what then, is the answer, OS? You rail against the GOP more than you do the socialists, and now rail against the only true citizens movement, which incidentally is doing a halfway decent job of reforming the GOP back to it's conservative roots.

Pick a course and stick with it, this circular argument makes me dizzy.

Mark, I have become so alienated from and abandoned by the US two party system in the 44 years of my voting life that I have actually given up any hopes that we will ever see more than grudging lip service to the fundamental principles of our former Republic.

I stay interested, because it's nearly impossible for a lifer news junkie to go cold turkey, but I admit that much of my commentary has become that of a "contemporary historian", if you will, rather than as a fully franchised participant.

Without a dissertation, I see no significant long term difference in the Democratic or Republican parties as far the end results, that being the further debilitation of the Republic. Certainly, there are relatively clear cut differences in their tendencies, but both are so inexorably and irrevocably corrupted to the purpose of maintaining power that the legislation of that power has become little more than tyranny. Neither personal liberty nor the common good for the many even "trickle down" anymore, they are simply absorbed by the machines, whose ends are the perpetuation of their own elitist culture.

An advanced alien would almost certainly look down at us and assume the clever monkeys here would simply meld productive elements from all the great monkey minds we have seen fit to send to legislatures to work together and in the process, using logic, science, and compassion, produce policies that maximally benefit both the worth of the free individual and the interdependent total citizenry. I'm sure that Jefferson, Adams, and the rest of the boys felt that way about it, too. Then again, though the Fathers' were well acquainted with the concept of personal wealth, they and the alien observers would be equally unfamiliar with the concept of career politicians and policy being bought by capitalistic elements that should need no special favors to fairly compete. Altruistic matters affecting the health, comfort, art, and amusement of the society (call it The Pursuit of Happiness) would be fomented and nurtured with the same enlightened and cooperative manner as the less genteel needs such as internal and external security. The aim would be the actual dispensation of these desirable ends, without the chains that make the recipients beholden to the givers.

Right.

The "givers" of course, and those that buy them, don't need the same dispensations, as money and insider knowledge equal a power that sets them above those they "govern" (read, "rule").

"All are equal but some are more equal than others".

Forgive my frequent sardonic punditry, but I find more irony than anything else in most of these discussions of "get the bad guys out and the good guys in", and can't help but comment on many of them. I disagree with you that the national Republican party can now ever be modified into something that I will ever enthusiastically again embrace. I'd be amazed if it becomes such for you either, to the degree I understand your pure sense of longing for a viable instrument in which to entrust your patriotism and what individual freedom you are still allowed.

Yes, the Tea folks are a refreshing development, probably as libertarian a force as we'll see short of, well...you know. But unless they can become a true Party in and of themselves, they will just be used, tricked, absorbed, and diluted into the same corrupt GOP over time. For a much as they may rail that they are not Republicans (and indeed they are NOT), there is no other faction with which they realistically can ideologically ally, if ally they must. I certainly don't mean to denigrate the effort at all (indeed, I attended the first big gathering here in Knoxville, and I'm sure will lean toward the candidates they run or endorse, for what little actual benefit that might possibly result). But their only true course to actually make a long term and substantial difference is to be an entity on their own, or at least completely overtake a lesser existing organization, the Libertarian Party being most likely in my estimation.

Hell, I already call myself a Libertarian if pinned down, and will even admit I voted such in the last election, out of desperation, despair, and an ever so tiny modicum of hope that it would actually foment a viable third party, still not really believing that Obama would sweep as he did, but of course already being so soured on Dubya and De Boyz I couldn't do the lesser of two evils thing either. I naively did the same in 1980 (John Anderson) -- I just couldn't get it up for a B movie actor I grew up with the first time, Knute Rockne and Kings Row notwithstanding. Although I did indeed vote for the Gipper the second time around, the last time I voted without holding my nose, at least in retrospect. But I'm telling you, Ronald Wilson Reagan himself couldn't pull the GOP out today. So, I'll be happy to continue as a card carrying Libertarian under the Tea Party force. Or even a Teaist. Or whatever.

Well, hmmm, I wanted to answer your question as fully as possible, since I do respect you. Thought about just doing a PM, but what the heck, maybe some others are curious as to my "circular arguments" too.

I guess this turned into a minor dissertation after all.

I did spare you the PowerPoint presentation, though.

- OS

[Mark@Sea]

Thank ghu for that: D

I'm as sick of the crap coming out of both parties as you are. We've strayed a long way from our republican ideals, and I've long said the biggest problem in this country is we don't hang enough politicians.

Someone once said our system of government was the worst in history - except for ever other system ever tried .

[G27]

I don't think the republic can be fixed, but I'm going to continue to try, and right now the only group trying anything is the Tea Party...

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I think it can and will be fixed. The Tea Party movement is, right now, the best game in town. It is not a political party, OS, that ground has been covered. They are plain old

people just like(maybe) us. They haven't given up. They love this country and are doing

something about it. I think that's good company to be in.

[Mark@Sea]

Yep. That pretty much covers it. My only addendum is that I'm no longer willing to live and let live with socialists and morons who use demands for 'tolerance' and political correctness as a weapon and a shield to batter my ideals of liberty.

You don't like the ideals this country was founded on? Find constitutional restrictions on government distasteful or unhelpful to your cause of the moment? There are plenty of places you can meddle to your hearts content. I'll help you pack,

[DaveTN]

I have voiced my opinion on States Rights many times here as they apply to gun laws, and I am hoping that States Rights will be the very thing that will stop this health care calamity from becoming law.

As of yesterday I heard that 12 states have said they will legally challenge this. Our future in this matter is now in the hands of the state of Tennessee. Let’s see what our legislators and other elected officials do.

Washington has done it again—more debt, more taxes, more spending.

On Sunday, the US House of Representatives passed a government takeover of our healthcare system. This is just one more example of an out of control federal government forcing an unfunded mandate on the people of Tennessee.

It is a shame that the politicians in Washington are so out of touch with ordinary Americans. Tennesseans do not want the government in charge of their healthcare, but Congress refused to listen. Now it is up to the states to stand up to Washington.

I have called on the Tennessee Attorney General to challenge the constitutionality of this bill. You can see my statement on the matter below.

Lt. Governor Ron Ramsey

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

March 22, 2010

The healthcare legislation passed yesterday is a disaster for Tennessee citizens and our constitutional requirement to maintain a balanced budget. It will raise taxes on Tennessee citizens while stripping away the right to control one’s own medical decisions.

I believe the bill passed yesterday by the U.S. House is unconstitutional and I am calling on Attorney General Cooper to join the 11 state Attorneys General already planning to challenge the constitutionality of the bill.

Individual states must challenge this legislation immediately to halt its implementation. The longer we wait, the more it will cost the state of Tennessee and her citizens. Washington has forced this problem upon us – it is now up to state leaders to stop this unfunded mandate from breaking state budgets across the country.

Lt. Governor Ron Ramsey

PO Box 331309 - Nashville, TN 37203

ron@teamronramsey.com

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Glad to see that post. I was wondering when it would happen. While they are at it, they should put some teeth in the TN Firearms Freedom Act. Never know, maybe.

Edited March 24, 2010 by 6.8 AR
caps

[Guest thorn]

Mark, I have become so alienated from and abandoned by the US two party system in the 44 years of my voting life that I have actually given up any hopes that we will ever see more than grudging lip service to the fundamental principles of our former Republic.

I stay interested, because it's nearly impossible for a lifer news junkie to go cold turkey, but I admit that much of my commentary has become that of a "contemporary historian", if you will, rather than as a fully franchised participant.

Without a dissertation, I see no significant long term difference in the Democratic or Republican parties as far the end results, that being the further debilitation of the Republic. Certainly, there are relatively clear cut differences in their tendencies, but both are so inexorably and irrevocably corrupted to the purpose of maintaining power that the legislation of that power has become little more than tyranny. Neither personal liberty nor the common good for the many even "trickle down" anymore, they are simply absorbed by the machines, whose ends are the perpetuation of their own elitist culture.

An advanced alien would almost certainly look down at us and assume the clever monkeys here would simply meld productive elements from all the great monkey minds we have seen fit to send to legislatures to work together and in the process, using logic, science, and compassion, produce policies that maximally benefit both the worth of the free individual and the interdependent total citizenry. I'm sure that Jefferson, Adams, and the rest of the boys felt that way about it, too. Then again, though the Fathers' were well acquainted with the concept of personal wealth, they and the alien observers would be equally unfamiliar with the concept of career politicians and policy being bought by capitalistic elements that should need no special favors to fairly compete. Altruistic matters affecting the health, comfort, art, and amusement of the society (call it The Pursuit of Happiness) would be fomented and nurtured with the same enlightened and cooperative manner as the less genteel needs such as internal and external security. The aim would be the actual dispensation of these desirable ends, without the chains that make the recipients beholden to the givers.

Right.

The "givers" of course, and those that buy them, don't need the same dispensations, as money and insider knowledge equal a power that sets them above those they "govern" (read, "rule").

"All are equal but some are more equal than others".

Forgive my frequent sardonic punditry, but I find more irony than anything else in most of these discussions of "get the bad guys out and the good guys in", and can't help but comment on many of them. I disagree with you that the national Republican party can now ever be modified into something that I will ever enthusiastically again embrace. I'd be amazed if it becomes such for you either, to the degree I understand your pure sense of longing for a viable instrument in which to entrust your patriotism and what individual freedom you are still allowed.

Yes, the Tea folks are a refreshing development, probably as libertarian a force as we'll see short of, well...you know. But unless they can become a true Party in and of themselves, they will just be used, tricked, absorbed, and diluted into the same corrupt GOP over time. For a much as they may rail that they are not Republicans (and indeed they are NOT), there is no other faction with which they realistically can ideologically ally, if ally they must. I certainly don't mean to denigrate the effort at all (indeed, I attended the first big gathering here in Knoxville, and I'm sure will lean toward the candidates they run or endorse, for what little actual benefit that might possibly result). But their only true course to actually make a long term and substantial difference is to be an entity on their own, or at least completely overtake a lesser existing organization, the Libertarian Party being most likely in my estimation.

Hell, I already call myself a Libertarian if pinned down, and will even admit I voted such in the last election, out of desperation, despair, and an ever so tiny modicum of hope that it would actually foment a viable third party, still not really believing that Obama would sweep as he did, but of course already being so soured on Dubya and De Boyz I couldn't do the lesser of two evils thing either. I naively did the same in 1980 (John Anderson) -- I just couldn't get it up for a B movie actor I grew up with the first time, Knute Rockne and Kings Row notwithstanding. Although I did indeed vote for the Gipper the second time around, the last time I voted without holding my nose, at least in retrospect. But I'm telling you, Ronald Wilson Reagan himself couldn't pull the GOP out today. So, I'll be happy to continue as a card carrying Libertarian under the Tea Party force. Or even a Teaist. Or whatever.

Well, hmmm, I wanted to answer your question as fully as possible, since I do respect you. Thought about just doing a PM, but what the heck, maybe some others are curious as to my "circular arguments" too.

I guess this turned into a minor dissertation after all.

I did spare you the PowerPoint presentation, though.

- OS

Well, I'm 40 so I'm just going to blame you for being older than me at 61

[Guest thorn]

I have voiced my opinion on States Rights many times here as they apply to gun laws, and I am hoping that States Rights will be the very thing that will stop this health care calamity from becoming law.

As of yesterday I heard that 12 states have said they will legally challenge this. Our future in this matter is now in the hands of the state of Tennessee. Let’s see what our legislators and other elected officials do.

So, we have to use a bunch of our money to fight this while they use a bunch of our money to defend it. I understand the premise but do we expect anything? Is November (and the likes of Alexander) our next best hope?

[Guest HvyMtl]

Ok. I hate to be realistic here, but... Sadly, unless the Supreme Court wants to backtrack on all the precedent where the "health and welfare" of the citizens of the Nation outweighs the rights of the State, I highly doubt any legal actions will do more than delay, no matter the SCOTUS seems to be leaning more conservative of late...

As for Tennessee suing, it would be redundant, as 12-13 others already have. So, why waste the additional costs and attorney's fees?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

The more states join in gives a lot of incentive for this to be fought even harder. It also makes any judge listening to the argument to pay a bit more attention. From what I understand, there are precedents to use against this bill's constitutionality.

Don't be too harsh on Alexander. He put his nose under the tent. I was pleasantly

surprised.