Mayor dispels rumor about Belle Meade gun ban

[Guest 270win]

Yes this KWIK guy thinks that some antiquated ordinance means that your handgun carry permit is not good in say all of Nashville or Memphis or Chattanooga....kind of like Chicago in Illinois....he did not consult a lawyer before going into Belle Meade with a loaded pistol in his hand...and deserves what he gets for pulling that stunt. I've told him on OPENCARRY.ORG he needs to consult one now to keep this problem from snowballing and to lay low for a while and not carry a pistol....but he seems to be intent on carrying an unloaded pistol unconcealed....WILD!

We all know we can carry statewide and don't worry about this...now as far as parks..or city/county owned buildings that is correct..but otherwise on the city streets..stores..the permit is good statewide.

[eapking]

Nothing people do in this world happens in a vaccum. Kwik pulls dumb stunts like this and look what he brings on the rest of us. What a tool.

[TNTitan]

How does it mean nothing for state issued permit holders? Did I miss something? Maybe I am mistaken.

This ordinance means nothing for someone with a state issued handgun carry permit. It does mean the guy with the AK pistol will be hassled to the ends of the state if he decides to go back there now that he has his permit suspended and openly carry an unloaded handgun like he is determined to do.

razorback2003, it would appear you are correct. I just heard from the Belle Meade Chief of Police who informed me that this ordinance will not ban lawful carry of a handgun in Belle Meade. Rather, it updates the current ordinance that has been on the books for a long time. A valid handgun carry permit holder will still be able to lawfully carry in Belle Meade.

[Guest italia]

razorback2003, it would appear you are correct. I just heard from the Belle Meade Chief of Police who informed me that this ordinance will not ban lawful carry of a handgun in Belle Meade. Rather, it updates the current ordinance that has been on the books for a long time. A valid handgun carry permit holder will still be able to lawfully carry in Belle Meade.

Cool

[Worriedman]

Originally Posted by TNTitan

How does it mean nothing for state issued permit holders? Did I miss something? Maybe I am mistaken.

Originally Posted by razorback2003

This ordinance means nothing for someone with a state issued handgun carry permit. It does mean the guy with the AK pistol will be hassled to the ends of the state if he decides to go back there now that he has his permit suspended and openly carry an unloaded handgun like he is determined to do.

razorback2003, it would appear you are correct. I just heard from the Belle Meade Chief of Police who informed me that this ordinance will not ban lawful carry of a handgun in Belle Meade. Rather, it updates the current ordinance that has been on the books for a long time. A valid handgun carry permit holder will still be able to lawfully carry in Belle Meade.

I was thinking possibly the reaction against Belle Meade was going off half cocked......

[TNTitan]

I was thinking possibly the reaction against Belle Meade was going off half cocked......

It would seem so. The memo in the OP was mailed by the NRA Institute for Legislative Action to all its members, which is why I posted it here.

[Oh Shoot]

Will this qualify as a new ordinance, or as an existing one that's been changed?

Because if it's the latter, it will be grandfathered in due to it being in place before 1986, I think.

J.

Knoxville City Council said they were told by the AG that they could NOT modify their old no carry in parks ordinance. It had to either stand as is or be repealed. They let it stand as is.

Further, I don't see how Belle Meade can make a NEW ordinance against carrying an unloaded weapon, since that IS allowed by state law, and state law would preempt that, no?

- OS

[macville]

Knoxville City Council said they were told by the AG that they could NOT modify their old no carry in parks ordinance. It had to either stand as is or be repealed. They let it stand as is.

Further, I don't see how Belle Meade can make a NEW ordinance against carrying an unloaded weapon, since that IS allowed by state law, and state law would preempt that, no?

Yeah, that's what I was going to point out.

1308 says that it's legal to carry an unloaded gun if:

(1) Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon;

and 1314 says that no city or county can enact such an regulation unless it was before April 8, 1986. I would argue that what they are currently doing is updating an old regulation and therefore invalid with state law. So it would still be totally legal to OC in a holster or in the hand any UNLOADED handgun or rifle.

It is amazing that GOVERNMENTS will blatantly go in the face the of the law...especially laws that are about as clear cut as 1308 and 1314 (*smack* oh wait, that whole second amendment thing about not infringing on our right to keep or bare arms...)

Matthew

[Guest 270win]

I'd like to see KWIK go back there with his pistol in his hand this time....b/c he can still be charged with intent to go armed. Having a permit or any of the other things are defenses to prosecution...even being a LEO. Now we all know someone with a permit won't be arrested for 'intent to go armed' or a LEO...but technically you can be arrested for it and go to court and show your permit...but hey let KWIK go back to Belle Meade and then have to hire a lawyer!

[Krull]

This isn't surprising, will set a nice precident for other cities. But hey some of you support Lenny so good for you. Every one else realizes that carrying a gun is not a right and can be taken away.

Edited March 17, 2010 by Krull

[Oh Shoot]

Actually, re-reading this, it's essentially the same thing as state statue anyway, except looks like it would be illegal to carry even a 1" blade, or any of several other kinds of blades of any length, none of which is specified in state statute.

Surely THAT'S no kosher under state preemption?

Again, Knoxville said the were told they could NOT modify their old city ordinance, could only leave it as is, or repeal it.

And even so, some of these bans are beyond state statutes.

- OS

Edited March 17, 2010 by OhShoot

[StumpyBeagle]

The City Paper

Mayor dispels rumor about Belle Meade gun ban

Wednesday, March 17, 2010 at 12:33am By Sherry Phillips

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<!--paging_filter-->After a gun rights activist walked down a Belle Meade street with a loaded pistol in his hand, the city decided it needed to clean up an outdated law on its books.

But the change has stirred a wave of opposition from gun rights groups including the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action which made a post Tuesday on its website that claimed the city was trying to ban guns.

“Not only does this legislation create a victim zone inside Belle Meade by disarming law-abiding citizens, it is also a clear violation of Tennessee’s preemption statutes,†the post read in part.

The NRA-ILA urged citizens to voice opposition to an ordinance on the Wednesday city commission agenda.

“There is a rumor going around that we are going to ban handguns, guns in the city,†said Mayor Gray Thornburg.

She said the rumor is a “complete misunderstanding.†The city is merely realigning their ordinance to be in line with state regulations.

“I know that a whole bunch of people in Belle Meade own guns, and I’m sure that there are plenty who have permits to carry,†she said. “They are absolutely right. I wouldn’t violate somebody’s Second Amendment right by banning guns.â€

The current Belle Meade municipal code includes a section on firearms and weapons that says “it is unlawful for any person to carry in any manner whatever, with the intent to go armed and razor, dirk, knife, blackjack, brass knuckles, pistol, revolver or any other dangerous weapon or instrument…â€

It also includes the phrase “except the army or navy pistol which shall be carried openly in the hand.â€

The new ordinance deletes the exception that would include the Navy black powder pistol Leonard Embody carried when he walked down Belle Meade Boulevard in mid-February.

Embody, who is active on many gun rights blogs, first gained attention in December when he brandished a loaded AK-47 pistol at Radnor Lake State Park. At the time, he said he would continue to carry — to test the state’s laws. On several blogs, he said he would go to Bicentennial Mall and to Belle Meade.

“As you probably know, he came into the city [with a Navy model 1851 black powder pistol] basically forcing our hand on the law,†Thornburg said. “The police were expecting him to come, we were expecting him to push buttons.â€

She said Embody found a loophole in the law that allowed him to carry the military-style weapon, and the city is amending the law to take off the out of date exemption.

“That’s all we are doing,†Thornburg said. “We’re deleting that particular part which is very, very old. Historically, everybody had that in there.â€

Thornburg said the law should have been taken off the books years ago, but likened finding outdated laws to searching for a needle in a haystack.

“We do this on a routine basis,†she said. “Every time a state building code gets changed, we change. When you’re made aware of an ordinance that’s not correct you change it. And that’s really all that we’re doing.â€

The ordinance will be before the commission Wednesday on second and final reading. Commissioners can either approve it or defer it, if they think there are too many questions that need to be answered.

“This one, I don’t know,†Thornburg said. “There hasn’t been any conversation on it, but I promise you we have been bombarded with emails.â€

Mayor dispels rumor about Belle Meade gun ban | Nashville City Paper: Nashville's Online Source for Daily News

[Guest Jamie]

Calling Leonard Embody a "gun rights activist" is either one of the biggest kindnesses I've ever seen in a news article, or one of the biggest pieces of misinformation...

J.

[Seaslug]

The current Belle Meade municipal code includes a section on firearms and weapons that says “it is unlawful for any person to carry in any manner whatever, with the intent to go armed and razor, dirk, knife, blackjack, brass knuckles, pistol, revolver or any other dangerous weapon or instrument…â€

How exactly is she dispelling the rumor? The passage above is still part of the municipal code, and if the state preemption issue is ignored, then it could still be considered illegal to carry any sort of firearm in the city of Belle Meade.

[macville]

I'd like to see KWIK go back there with his pistol in his hand this time....b/c he can still be charged with intent to go armed. Having a permit or any of the other things are defenses to prosecution...even being a LEO. Now we all know someone with a permit won't be arrested for 'intent to go armed' or a LEO...but technically you can be arrested for it and go to court and show your permit...but hey let KWIK go back to Belle Meade and then have to hire a lawyer!

But you don't seem to get it. Under current legal law in Belle Meade, it's only legal to carry an army/navy pistol in the hand. Yes, they won't nail you if you have an HCP, but legally they should. So legally until they change their pre 1986 regulation, he has a defense.

Matthew

[macville]

The mayor is an idiot. The entire ordnance is pre-empted by state law, and is really unnecessary because the state already bans most of those weapons from being carried.

Matthew

[2.ooohhh]

How exactly is she dispelling the rumor? The passage above is still part of the municipal code, and if the state preemption issue is ignored, then it could still be considered illegal to carry any sort of firearm in the city of Belle Meade.

From what I understand, the amending of an pre-existing gun law is legal, creating a new law is not. They are simply removing the exemption for the "army/navy pistol carried openly in the hand". The HCP is a defense to the law where it states "with the intent to go armed" which is the critical part of most of the local gun laws.

[Seaslug]

From what I understand, the amending of an pre-existing gun law is legal, creating a new law is not. They are simply removing the exemption for the "army/navy pistol carried openly in the hand". The HCP is a defense to the law where it states "with the intent to go armed" which is the critical part of most of the local gun laws.

Fair enough. It just seems like they could have simply removed the entire passage, rather than just the section regarding the army/navy pistol, and the controversy would have been avoided.

[Smith]

Guys. The code does not apply to HCP holders or gun ownership. It is no different than the state law, minus the open hand thing. That is why they are removing that part. Mountain out of a molehill.

[railfancwb]

"Back in the day..." the open hand thing was the state carry permission. At that time, handguns could not be sold by dealers in Tennessee...so east Tennesseans went to Virginia for them -- just like they did for their booze.

[JAB]

IANAL and the local police might not intend to enforce this ordinance against an HCP holder but I see no exception made within the text of the ordinance. Might this not become a problem down the road if some police chief decides to enforce it against HCP holders? Sure, it might get thrown out in court but not before someone (or multiple someones) are arrested, harrassed, etc.

This Kwik guy has really opened up a few cans of worms at a time when HCP holders don't need to be made out to look like a bunch of loose cannons any more than the media already does. Regardless of what the Constitution says and what we know our rights to be, we are the minority. We need to keep public opinion - I.E. voter opinion (which will, unfortunately, often sway politicians more than the Constitution) positive - or at least not actively opposed - with regard to our side as much as possible in order to see more favorable laws passed. Taking a stand on issues is one thing. Pushing buttons and tweaking noses just to show how 'smart' you are is quite another.

Interestingly and I am sure as a result of old language from the time the ordinance first passed, the ordinance exempts "...any officer or policeman engaged in his official duties..." so I guess, technically, a policewoman engaging in her official duties would not be exempted from the statute. Not trying to go all women's lib here, just pointing out what the letter of the law or, in this case ordinance, says.

Edited March 17, 2010 by JAB

[Guest 1817ak47]

The City Paper Embody, who is active on many gun rights blogs

at least they also know what he is up too

[Oh Shoot]

..The entire ordnance is pre-empted by state law, and is really unnecessary because the state already bans most of those weapons from being carried....

It is no different than the state law, minus the open hand thing.

Except on school property, state law only bans knives over 4", clubs, switchblades and knuckles.

The Belle Meade ordinance verbiage bans ALL knives.

- OS

[Guest Knightsr25]

This reminds me of the hicap magazine ban , just another law to be randomly enforced . Make every action or possession illegal and we can harrass you at will.

[Guest 270win]

Memphis City Limits has a similar type old city ordinance except it does not give an exemption for carrying openly in the hand an army/navy gun. Collierville has an ordinance that does give an exemption for carrying the army/navy gun openly in the hand. This does not mean you are illegal for carrying your handgun in Memphis or Collierville WITH a permit.....these are just old town/city ordinances that are rarely revised. Your permit is good statewide.