First Rifle Purchase - Looking for some advice

[RobertNashville]

Hello everyone,

I am about to embark on some brand new territory for me which is the purchase of a rifle.

While I have several handguns and shotguns, I’ve come to the conclusion that to really be prepared for most contingencies, a rifle is something needed and something I’m missing.

While not set is stone, I’ve pretty much settled on the AR15 platform – my problem is that I’ve never personally owned a rifle before, let alone an AR. My only real rifle experience came from military service (I’ve logged quite a lot of rounds through an M1 and an M14) but that’s it.

I won’t say money is no object but I do want to get the best “return†for the money spent.

I’m looking for recommendations on manufacturers/models and chambering. I’d like a chambering that, in times of crisis, won’t be impossible to find.

Any help…advice…pointed toward available resources, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Guest JHatmaker]

As far as chamberings easy to find; go with either 5.56 or .308. But the problem is in times of crisis, it'll be hard to get anything. So if you're looking for something to have if the SHTF, then stock up on whatever caliber you decide to go with.

I recommend just going w/ your standard 5.56/.223 Rem (making sure the rifle is truely chambered for 5.56).

What kind of budget are you working with? Under $1000? Over $1000?

There's many choices, we'll need a little bit more info to recommend something that fits your needs and budget.

[Jack]

I dont know your personal idea of what **** hit the fan means to you,It could be some sort of force on force or just survival,but here is what im working on.

Im builing a new ar-15 becuase the 223 is very popular,and is also a man stopper if it needs to be. Another reason I chose an AR15 is the 22 conversion kits. 22 is not hard at all to find and can be a fairly adaquite hunting round if needed. No need in using all your 223 on small game.

[nightrunner]

If it makes sense financially, I would suggest a Springfield Socom 16. Its a M1A, so it should be fairly familiar in reference to the M14.

If not Id suggest a AR-15 chambered in 5.56NATO

[mk19]

There are many options you could go with. First choice I'd recommend the AR platform. Many reasons. 1, light and accurate, 2 ammo+mags would be readily available specially in a SHTF situation, 3 ease of use with little training, 4 accessories galore, 5 can have different calibers by just changing the upper,(223/5.56, 6.8SPC, 6.5Grendel, 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 9mm, 45ACP...) and ofcourse you can find a decent one without giving up an arm. You can buy any lower you want they all work fine, just get your self a nice upper, you can go with anything from LMT, Stag, CMMG, Bushmaster, Colt, RRA way too many to name, just make sure it is cambered for 5.56 nato. Now with the rifling twist there is 1:9 and 1:7 the later being what the military uses, and both have drawback. 1:9 like lighter projectiles (55 grain) mainly available in 223 and 5.56, 1:7 likes heavier projectiles (62, 75 or what not) here is the thing, I have shot 55 gr out of 1:9 and have gotten super nice groups and have shot the same ammo out of 1:7 and have got many tumbles in 25 yards let alone longer distances, and 1:9 tumbles heavier projectiles at distance. However everyone is on the 1:7's nuts, just cuz it is mil spec.

and then for more $$$ there is th FN SCAR, Bushmaster ACR, Robinson Arms XCR, MSAR STG556, HK MR223 and for less money there is always the AK variants.

M1A's are good but are heavy, ammo is expensive and SOCOM16 are as accurate as a sling shot. as you are entering rifle territory, you are gonna find out that only one is not going to satisfy your needs. you are going to end up buying more.

Edited March 15, 2010 by mk19

[RobertNashville]

As far as chamberings easy to find; go with either 5.56 or .308. But the problem is in times of crisis, it'll be hard to get anything. So if you're looking for something to have if the SHTF, then stock up on whatever caliber you decide to go with.

I recommend just going w/ your standard 5.56/.223 Rem (making sure the rifle is truely chambered for 5.56).

What kind of budget are you working with? Under $1000? Over $1000?

There's many choices, we'll need a little bit more info to recommend something that fits your needs and budget.

I would prefer keeping the basic rifle under $1,500 but could go up to as much as $2,500.

[RobertNashville]

There are many options you could go with. First choice I'd recommend the AR platform. Many reasons. 1, light and accurate, 2 ammo+mags would be readily available specially in a SHTF situation, 3 ease of use with little training, 4 accessories galore, 5 can have different calibers by just changing the upper,(223/5.56, 6.8SPC, 6.5Grendel, 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 9mm, 45ACP...) and ofcourse you can find a decent one without giving up an arm. You can buy any lower you want they all work fine, just get your self a nice upper, you can go with anything from LMT, Stag, CMMG, Bushmaster, Colt, RRA way too many to name, just make sure it is cambered for 5.56 nato. Now with the rifling twist there is 1:9 and 1:7 the later being what the military uses, and both have drawback. 1:9 like lighter projectiles (55 grain) mainly available in 223 and 5.56, 1:7 likes heavier projectiles (62, 75 or what not) here is the thing, I have shot 55 gr out of 1:9 and have gotten super nice groups and have shot the same ammo out of 1:7 and have got many tumbles in 25 yards let alone longer distances, and 1:9 tumbles heavier projectiles at distance. However everyone is on the 1:7's nuts, just cuz it is mil spec.

and then for more $$$ there is th FN SCAR, Bushmaster ACR, Robinson Arms XCR, MSAR STG556, HK MR223 and for less money there is always the AK variants.

M1A's are good but are heavy, ammo is expensive and SOCOM16 are as accurate as a sling shot. as you are entering rifle territory, you are gonna find out that only one is not going to satisfy your needs. you are going to end up buying more.

Thanks for all the info! You've given me a lot to consider...I appreciate it!

An M1 had been on my wish list for a long, long time but as I've become more familiar with the AR15 platform I've found less and less reason to go that direction.

[Guest rystine]

It sounds like your more or less settled on the AR platform. Be sure to give the AK a legitimate look as well. Some of the quality AK's out there can come close to most AR's in terms of accuracy, given equivilent ammo. And of course they have a legendary reputation for reliability.

Does that $1500 figure include an optic, sling, extra magazines? Or when you say "basic rifle" do you mean just that? I ask because $1500 can get an excellent quality AR by itself, but the various "goodies" can quickly raise the total investment.

Smith & Wesson, Stag, Bushmaster, Rock River, and Sabre Defense are some of the makers that I would consider make good quality AR's. Most of their models can be had at or around $1000. Colt, LMT, LWRC, Noveske, and Daniel Defense are a step up in quality (at least according to various internet commandos), but also a step up in price. Still though, alot of their weapons can be found for under your $1500 mark (Colt's usually run around $1200-1300 for example).

Whatever you do, don't get in too big a hurry to get one. There is a ton of knowledge floating around the internet about AR's and you simply can't research it too much. Good Luck!

[JeffL]

For $1000 I'd like to have the Daniel Defense rifle. Daniel Defense XV M4 Carbine .223/5.56 Rifle . AIM also has one of theirs with a quad rail already installed for you to mount a light on. Here's a good source of info on AR15 rifles and accessories: AR-15 - AR15.COM .

[gotigers]

+1 for Nato 5.56, 1:7 (1:9 is ok), M4gery. Daniel Defense, S&W M&P15(usually 1:9),BCM. Shoot it, you'll figure out what you want to upgrade.

[Guest kerank]

I would 2nd Mr. Lemons. Daniel Defense makes one of the top ARs (even in the eyes of the Internet commandos ). For 1k you get a top line rifle, and you can spend the rest on an Aimpoint with Larue mount (Aimpoint Comp M3 w/ LaRue Tactical QD Mount (STANDARD MOUNT SHOWN)). That combination makes for an easy to shoot, accurate, and reliable rifle.

[Guest 10mm4me]

Here is my thought on a "crisis rifle", everyone is going the black rifle route, high cap mags, high $$$ optics. My SHTF rifle will be a Marlin 336 w/see thru scope mounts. It is powerful, reliable, and ammo is cheap and available enough to buy a box every paycheck and stockpile. In a survival situation evasion is the key. You won't be able or want to throw mag after mag down range. You will nead steady, accurate fire. I believe the 30-30 to be an adequate round for just about anything. I will be buying a new one soon, but the one I have now is well over 30 yrs old and works like new. I would get that or a good bolt action.

[DaveTN]

This is an easy one. Sounds to me like you want an AR platform in the .308 caliber you used before.

DPMS Panther .308.

AR platform from a quality manufacturer in the caliber the AR should have been in the first place and under $1500. What else do you need?

[RobertNashville]

Here is my thought on a "crisis rifle", everyone is going the black rifle route, high cap mags, high $$$ optics. My SHTF rifle will be a Marlin 336 w/see thru scope mounts. It is powerful, reliable, and ammo is cheap and available enough to buy a box every paycheck and stockpile. In a survival situation evasion is the key. You won't be able or want to throw mag after mag down range. You will nead steady, accurate fire. I believe the 30-30 to be an adequate round for just about anything. I will be buying a new one soon, but the one I have now is well over 30 yrs old and works like new. I would get that or a good bolt action.

That's an interesting suggesting and one that, frankly, I hadn't considered...Thanks!

[nolo]

I just jumped into the AR15 market for the first time too. I went with a Rock River Arms AR. As far as entry carbines I could not tell a difference in the major brands-Bushmaster, Stag, S&W. I went with the RRA due to the dealer saying he would knock of $150 on the price of it. Plus I liked the two stage trigger. After shooting it I have found it to be a great rifle. I haven't had any misfires or failures in almost 200 rounds. I put a leupold AR scope on it and am out the door for less than $1400 including tax. I think it is a good place to start and upgrade later, which I have been doing. Rock River Arms: Entry Tactical

If someone local had carried Daniel Defense, I would have gone with one of those.

[Guest smileyguy]

As another poster stated, don't rule out the AK. The most reliable semi-auto rifle ever. If shtf and lubricant/cleaning supplies/etc are hard to come by just slop some motor oil in it and your good to go. 7.62x39, while not as accurate, it is accurate enough and is more lethal. And for $1500 you could get 3 AKs and 1000 rounds of ammo.

The AR has advantages. Accuracy, but most of all optics options. I think the new piston driven designs will prove more reliable. I'm not a fan of 5.56 but it is plentiful and light to carry. I would prefer 6.8 or 6.5 though for better terminal ballistics.

The M1 or M14 is great but heavy. Same with 308. Accurate and a heavy hitter but heavy to carry.

If you can, try to shoot all 3 and see what you like.

And nothing againt the guys who suggested sporting rifels/30-30 lever actions, they are fine, but I'll take my AK or an AR any day. The hi-cap military rifels are just as capable of taking game as a sporting rifle, but the sporting rifle is not as adept at fending off gangs of thugs and looters. Just my 2 cents.

[rentalguy1]

I agree with most everything said here. I purchased a Rock River Arms LAR-15/CAR A4 5.56/.223 a couple of months ago, and I am very happy with it. I would suggest them to anyone. The prices are reasonable, too. Rock River Arms:

Most dealers offer this brand. The thing you need to be looking at is how do you want to outfit the rifle, because that will determine the rifle you buy. Some guys prefer the A2, non-collapsable stock and iron sights that they used in the military, because they are used to the weight and feel of it. I had many thousands of rounds through that type of rifle, but it had been a long time ago, so I found a few friends with different AR configurations and I played with all of them before deciding. I also did quite a bit of reading on accessories before buying. I ended up with a flat top model, which easily enabled me to mount a EOTech holographic sight on top. It allows for uber quick target acquisition. It might be hard to make pretty groups with that sight, but when you absolutely, positively need something to be dead right then, there is no better or faster way to get on target. I also added a rear iron sight to be able to make the pretty little groups at the range. Since I have the quad rail out front, I had to have a forward hand grip. If you get rails, they will get very hot if you put a lot of rounds downrange in a short time, so the grip is pretty much mandatory. If you're not used to shooting one, don't worry, because you will quickly adapt.

Good luck on your purchase. I also wanted to add that if you really don't want to sink over a grand into a rifle and accessories, take a look at the AK. It's not as accurate (IMHO) as the AR, but they are plentiful, and much cheaper than the AR. Plus, the 7.62x39 ammo is readily available just about anywhere, and much cheaper than the 5.56/.223. You can hang all kinds of accessories from these rifles as well.

[RobertNashville]

I appreciate all the feedback I've gotten...not sure which way to go yet but I appreciate the advice!

I do think I'm leaning toward the 223/556 chambering.

I realize that effectiveness, especially at long range, is decreased compared to the more powerful rifle cartridges but I am seeing a rifle purchase, at least an initial one, as a home defense weapon and my thoughts are that the 223/556 is both sufficient and safer for such use and certainly more so than any of my handguns or shotguns that I currently own.

That said, I'm also looking at the FN FS2000 (there is a slightly used one for sale on the board)...more money than I was initially thinking of spending although I had a chance to examine one/hold one closely just last night and it was very comfortable (and much lighter weight than I expected).

In any case...I've still got a lot of homework to do but I appreciate everyone's input!

Edited March 18, 2010 by RobertNashville

[Guest 10mm4me]

If you are set on a 5.56x45 then do yourself a favor and go with the AR mil-spec platform. If for no other reason than the availability of replacement parts. You could literally stockpile enough internal replacement kits to keep the rifle running for many lifetimes.

[byrnemm]

Hi Robert. I think that maybe with your handguns and shotguns you are prepared for most contingencies and maybe you want a rifle for fun or other perfectly good reasons.

Someone mentioned a 30-30 lever action and I think that is a great suggestion worth consideration. Especially if you any desire to hunt or if you have a son or someone to whom you would pass the rifle down.

An AR sounds fun if you are looking for a hobby. Many say an AR is never done, and I think that an AR as a continuous project sounds fun. Especially your budget which gives you freedom to accessorize. Maybe start simple and add on slowly?

I have experience with the m16 for infantry training with the Marines. On my own time I shoot rimfires and am currently purchasing a deer rifle. I don't think you are interested in those applications.

Good luck.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That 30-30 is a good idea. I never thought about it before and I own three of them. Rugged and reliable.

My AR go to gun is a 6.8 although I have a few 5.56's. If you go with a different caliber, make sure you can find ammo. I load my

6.8 and have built up quite a reserve. They are quite a capable round and parts are now plentiful. Nothing wrong with any of these choices.

[Curiousgb]

That's an interesting suggesting and one that, frankly, I hadn't considered...Thanks!

I own a safe full of lever guns. Unfortunately I don't own a thurty thurty. But I do agree it would be a great SHTF rifle. I have a 357 and 44 mag lever guns, they hold 10 rounds each. Inside 100 yrds I don't think there is much on two or four legs that they wouldn't handle.

[tnhawk]

I like the 6.8 spc, but it can be difficult to find. I now have added .308 and 5.56 rifles.

[RobertNashville]

I've pretty much decided what I'm interested in, at least as a first rifle purchase and I've posted in the "Wanted to Buy" section.

I'd invite any comments, good or bad about my three choices.

my thread is here: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/want-buy/37288-wtb-sig556-fhn-fs-2000-highend-ar15.html#post486429

My first choice is a Sig 556 (in SWAT Classic or SWAT Patrol configuration) followed very closely by an FNH FS2000 (Standard carbine or Tactical Black). A definite "third" choice would be a high-end AR15.

I may, of course, have to buy retail to get what I want but I figure it can't hurt to try and find someone who has one they are wiling to sell for a fair price!

Edited March 22, 2010 by RobertNashville

[Guest 10mm4me]

You should go up to Guns & Leather in Greenbrier, they (and others) have a $300 rebate on the Sig 556. And great prices to start with. Awesome service as well.