Pulled my weapon for the first time.Opinions?

[Kelemvor]

Jack, sorry you had to be put in a situation like that. You did the right thing, in a 15 second time frame, you couldn't have gotten yourself and your gf out of the way, so drawing your weapon in case something happened. Better prepared than unprepared.

I answer my back door with my pistol in my hand unless I can identify a vehicle parked in my back driveway. Why? Because my back door is obscured from street view and I'm not risking it.

Question to you naysayers. If someone runs into your yard pointing a gun at you and your loved ones, are you going to keep your weapon holstered until they are shooting at you? A car is the same thing, a deadly weapon, and when you recklessly drive it directly at someone, you are threatening their life.

[Guest Jamie]

...A car is the same thing, a deadly weapon, and when you recklessly drive it directly at someone, you are threatening their life.

The problem with a motor vehicle is that even if you kill the driver and all the passengers, the damn thing can still roll right on over you and finish the job.

And that being the case, getting the hell out of it's path needs to be your first reflex, not reaching for your gun... unless you just wanna die with it in hand.

The fact that the OP thought they were going to stop rather than keep going through to the parking lot is really the only reason I can see for drawing. And make no mistake, it certainly is a valid one. However, not every threat is going to be best dealt with by reaching for your sidearm first.

Cover is the first thing a person should be looking for, no matter what, be it an armed human, or a pickup truck rolling down on ya. Survival is the name of the game, after all.

J.

[Kelemvor]

The problem with a motor vehicle is that even if you kill the driver and all the passengers, the damn thing can still roll right on over you and finish the job.

And that being the case, getting the hell out of it's path needs to be your first reflex, not reaching for your gun... unless you just wanna die with it in hand.

The fact that the OP thought they were going to stop rather than keep going through to the parking lot is really the only reason I can see for drawing. And make no mistake, it certainly is a valid one. However, not every threat is going to be best dealt with by reaching for your sidearm first.

Cover is the first thing a person should be looking for, no matter what, be it an armed human, or a pickup truck rolling down on ya. Survival is the name of the game, after all.

J.

If you're a good enough shot you can shoot the car into park and stop it that way.

[Guest Jamie]

If you're a good enough shot you can shoot the car into park and stop it that way.

It won't actually go into park until it's traveling slower than a couple of miles per hour...

Best bet is to aim for the parking/emergency brake.

J.

[knoxrocks222]

...

Edited March 4, 2010 by knoxrocks222
to keep the internet tough guys away

[Oh Shoot]

her life was in danger was it not? he would have been a dead man if it was me

So you're a cop, huh?

Right.

- OS

[Guest Jamie]

her life was in danger was it not?

Apparently not, given that she's still among the breathing, and suffered no injury what so ever.

And this without anybody having to be fired on, and given the OP's position, quite possibly without either of the two truck occupants even seeing his gun.

And that last fact is something everybody needs to think on and consider.

J.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Jamie

[knoxrocks222]

So you're a cop, huh?

Right.

- OS

.....

Edited March 4, 2010 by knoxrocks222
edited to keep from ruffling feathers

[Guest Jamie]

Last edited by knoxrocks222; Today at 10:50 PM.. Reason: to keep the internet tough guys away

So you're running yourself off?

J.

[OngoingFreedom]

Originally Posted by knoxrocks222

her life was in danger was it not?

Apparently not, given that she's still among the breathing, and suffered no injury what so ever.

And this without anybody having to be fired on, and given the OP's position, quite possibly without either of the two truck occupants even seeing his gun.

And that last fact is something everybody needs to think on and consider.

J.

A poor evaluation.

I recall a spectacular destruction of a Corvette that was in flight on an interstate fleeing from police. The driver lost control trying to pass an 18-wheeler on the right. The car spun a quarter turn to the right, the back end hitting the back of the truck. The car quickly disintegrated in the desert beside the road and the driver was ejected to a sitting position in the middle of the detritus, untouched and unharmed.

By your definition of "danger" the Corvette driver was not in any at any time because he emerged in excellent condition.

[strickj]

A poor evaluation.

I recall a spectacular destruction of a Corvette that was in flight on an interstate fleeing from police. The driver lost control trying to pass an 18-wheeler on the right. The car spun a quarter turn to the right, the back end hitting the back of the truck. The car quickly disintegrated in the desert beside the road and the driver was ejected to a sitting position in the middle of the detritus, untouched and unharmed.

By your definition of "danger" the Corvette driver was not in any at any time because he emerged in excellent condition.

You can not predict the out come of an automotive accident.

I have seen the outcomes first hand of what can happen to the human body after a low-speed collision.

The human body is fragile . Very fragile and not forgiving.

A two ton vehicle is not fragile.

If you want to see first hand at what can happen to the human body vs car then spend some time in a rehab facility instead of watching Wildest Police Videos...

Edited March 4, 2010 by strickj

[Erik88]

A poor evaluation.

I recall a spectacular destruction of a Corvette that was in flight on an interstate fleeing from police. The driver lost control trying to pass an 18-wheeler on the right. The car spun a quarter turn to the right, the back end hitting the back of the truck. The car quickly disintegrated in the desert beside the road and the driver was ejected to a sitting position in the middle of the detritus, untouched and unharmed.

By your definition of "danger" the Corvette driver was not in any at any time because he emerged in excellent condition.

I believe this is the video you are talking about. Not sure how it relates to this topic but I figured I would post it.

[Fallguy]

You con not predict the out come of an automotive accident.

I have seen the outcomes first hand of what can happen to the human body after a low-speed collision.

The human body is fragile . Very fragile and not forgiving.

A two ton vehicle is not fragile.

If you want to see first hand at what can happen to the human body vs car then spend some time in a rehab facility instead of watching Wildest Police Videos...

I believe his point was that just because something bad didn't happen, doesn't mean that it couldn't have.

Also meaning just because someone didn't die in a certain situation doesn't mean that their life wasn't in danger (or at least reasonably perceived to be in danger) at the time.

[Guest tnvolfan]

You did the right thing to have your gun ready at your side. Cars are used as deadly weapons all the time, and you had no idea of the driver's intent. If they had hit your girlfriend or yourself, and you had missed getting your gun out to shoot their tires out or whatever, all you could have said was how sorry you were you missed the occasion to defend yourself and those you love. You did the right thing by restraining and evaluating the moment. I admire what you did and kudos to you for "keeping your kool" in a very serious situation!

[Guest Jamie]

Also meaning just because someone didn't die in a certain situation doesn't mean that their life wasn't in danger (or at least reasonably perceived to be in danger) at the time.

That one word, "perceived", is the point I was trying to make; that sometimes the reality of the situation isn't known 'til after the fact.

In the OP's case, the reality is that no one needed shooting, perceptions at the time to the contrary. ( How would Jack feel know if he ad opened up on the truck, and it turned out it was just a couple of goofy school kids who had their vehicle get away from 'em? )

So our friend knoxrocks222's comment of "he would have been a dead man if it was me" amounts to little more than on-line tough-guy chest-thumping.

J.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Jamie

[Oh Shoot]

...

So our friend knoxrocks222's comment of "he would have been a dead man if it was me" amounts to little more than on-line tough-guy chest-thumping. ...

Yeah, since my comment shows there, it was because:

1. opening fire at an oncoming vehicle does NOT likely stop it from killing you. Very iffy about even hitting a target through a windshield on short notice in the first place.

2. One would best spend that second or three getting the frig out of the way!

3. Who knows what's going in that vehicle? Some guy could have just had a heart attack or stroke. You wouldn't know the diff until the vehicle left the scene or until a passenger or an autopsy revealed that you are now guilty of murder or manslaughter for shooting someone whose crime was having a medical emergency.

4. Etc, but enough. I wouldn't have even said anything, as we have several members who consistently profess the "kill them quick, kill them all, and let God sort them out" philosophy; but I just thought it was particularly egregious advice coming from a (supposed) LEO.

- OS

Edited March 5, 2010 by OhShoot
syntax

[Guest db99wj]

Was it a Toyota?

:D:p

[Fallguy]

That one word, "perceived", is the point I was trying to make; that sometimes the reality of the situation isn't known 'til after the fact.

In the OP's case, the reality is that no one needed shooting, perceptions at the time to the contrary. ( How would Jack feel know if he ad opened up on the truck, and it turned out it was just a couple of goofy school kids who had their vehicle get away from 'em? )

So our friend knoxrocks222's comment of "he would have been a dead man if it was me" amounts to little more than on-line tough-guy chest-thumping.

J.

knoxrocks222's comments aside, my point is that perceived is all the law requires as long as it was reasonable.

If he had killed the driver/occupants we may have never known what the actual intentions were. But it would matter what their "intentions" were if there actions were creating a threat.

All that said, I think he did just right in drawing to the low ready and holding fire.

[Guest Jamie]

...perceived is all the law requires as long as it was reasonable.

Believe me, I understand that... But I also understand that one should only fire on a threat one has a reasonable chance of nullifying by doing so.

A truck crashing down on you ain't it, since you have NO chance of stopping it, and very little chance of diverting it.

Take that fact and compound it with the possibility of you shooting someone who actually wasn't trying or intending to harm or kill you, and it's the basis for my first comment on this thread, and also a couple of comments to others here.

To sum it up, I wouldn't want to have to try and explain to a LEO or a jury why I took an action that any reasonable person should know had very little chance of success, while avoiding taking an action that not only had better odds, but also put fewer people at risk.

Anyway, no, I'm not faulting Jack for drawing. If anything, all I'm saying is that it was an unnecessary first action, and wouldn't have been MY first thought or reflex.

Even for that, he did very well by not shooting at the truck, and it's my opinion that anybody who feels otherwise really hasn't ever spent much time around cops, lawyers, or in court.

( And we all know who I'm talking to here. )

J.

[strickj]

Believe me, I understand that... But I also understand that one should only fire on a threat one has a reasonable chance of nullifying by doing so.

A truck crashing down on you ain't it, since you have NO chance of stopping it, and very little chance of diverting it.

Take that fact and compound it with the possibility of you shooting someone who actually wasn't trying or intending to harm or kill you, and it's the basis for my first comment on this thread, and also a couple of comments to others here.

To sum it up, I wouldn't want to have to try and explain to a LEO or a jury why I took an action that any reasonable person should know had very little chance of success, while avoiding taking an action that not only had better odds, but also put fewer people at risk.

Anyway, no, I'm not faulting Jack for drawing. If anything, all I'm saying is that it was an unnecessary first action, and wouldn't have been MY first thought or reflex.

Even for that, he did very well by not shooting at the truck, and it's my opinion that anybody who feels otherwise really hasn't ever spent much time around cops, lawyers, or in court.

( And we all know who I'm talking to here. )

J.

You, as a cop, would not draw on someone trying to hit you with their car?

[Fallguy]

Believe me, I understand that... But I also understand that one should only fire on a threat one has a reasonable chance of nullifying by doing so.

A truck crashing down on you ain't it, since you have NO chance of stopping it, and very little chance of diverting it.

Not that I completely disagree, but I bet all the LEOs over the years that have fired at vehicles attempting to run them over probably thought they had a slight chance of stopping the threat.

[Guest Jamie]

Not that I completely disagree, but I bet all the LEOs over the years that have fired at vehicles attempting to run them over probably thought they had a slight chance of stopping the threat.

And I'd bet most just wanted to kill the SOB who about to kill them or put them in the hospital for a month.

Remember, at a certain point the human mind switches from survival mode to revenge mode, given half a chance and no obvious path of escape.

J.

[Guest Jamie]

You, as a cop, would not draw on someone trying to hit you with their car?

My first action has always been to get the hell out of the way if at all possible. Any need for drawing or shooting is evaluated and done once that's accomplished. Also, slinging bullets around when they'll likely do no good was seriously frowned on by the sheriff I worked for.

Oh, and the only officer I personally know who managed to stop a vehicle that was trying to run over him did so by side-stepping the car, pivoting, drawing, and putting a round through the wheel ( not the tire, they let the air out too slowly ) closest to him. This was done at something around 20 MPH, as I recall.

That disabled the vehicle due to them being in a field at the time. ( Don't ask, it's a long story. )

So, if you happen to run into an ex Robertson county cop by the name of Heckart, ask him about it some time. Last I heard he now works for the Hendersonville PD.

J.

P.S. After thinking about it a bit, I can honestly say I've never drawn a gun on a vehicle... People, yes, but never a vehicle.

That's pretty funny, considering the odd things I've used for target practice.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Jamie

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I remember when he did that... I also remember searching a many houses with him and Charles Campbell lol, the memories!!!

[Guest Jamie]

You worked for the Robertson Co. SO, Phil?

J.