"Israeli Carry" Demonstrated

[The Rabbi]

I had a chance to shoot with a fellow who tells me he trained with the IDF. Here is my friend Gil demonstrating the draw with Israeli carry, i.e. empty chamber.

Note the exaggerated stance with knees bent. This makes one a smaller target and allows quick movement.

The gun is charged as it is drawn, turned right side up:

It is then thrust forward to aim:

Second hand goes to steady aim:

It was impressive to watch and always interesting to see a method that isn't commonly taught in U.S. schools.

Personally I don't have much use for it. I like mine ready to fire. I am a proponent of the Sykes/Fairbairn one handed method. But YMMV.

Enjoy.

[TGO David]

The question is... did Sasquatch survive this encounter or did your friend Gil manage to take him out?

[skwirl]

I just hope he has both hands free when he needs to use that pistol.

skwirl

[cadillacdude1975]

that is a stupid way to carry a pistol. not to mention one less round at your disposal as well. what if he was attacked on the left side and only had one arm to draw his sidearm? what is he going to do now? bite the slide with his teeth?

[molonlabetn]

that is a stupid way to carry a pistol. not to mention one less round at your disposal as well. what if he was attacked on the left side and only had one arm to draw his sidearm? what is he going to do now? bite the slide with his teeth?

Israelis are pretty tough dudes... I wouldn't put it past them to train for racking the slide with their 'member' if necessary.

[Joseg]

Okay, I've never taken a class and my experience is just from reading and trying it out on my own.

I have tried the Israeli carry (just to try it out), but instead of sideways, what I did was when coming forward, I pulled back on the slide and release once the round was in the chamber, by then the pistol will be up and lined up with the target.

It's a viable solution (my .02 cents). It's a technique and if practiced several times, you could quite possibly do it so fast that you won't even notice the slide racking..

[The Rabbi]

that is a stupid way to carry a pistol. not to mention one less round at your disposal as well. what if he was attacked on the left side and only had one arm to draw his sidearm? what is he going to do now? bite the slide with his teeth?

While the method doesn't do much for me, calling it "stupid" is incredibly ignorant and foolish. You are dealing with people who have had on-going combat for close to 50 years.

I do not know what the rationale is for any of it. I imagine somewhere there is a consideration of what if someone grabs the gun away. This way you have a chance to recover it without getting killed first.

[Guest jcoyle6]

I just feel that carrying in anything but ready to go out of the holster is unwise. I would rather have my non dominant hand available to deflect an attack at close range or just have it free for any other purpose.

[molonlabetn]

My understanding is that this mode of carry was devised for 2 primary reasons:

- The pistols which were commonly carried had cumbersome safety controls, making it easier to rack the slide of an pistol which was left off-safe, than fiddle with the safeties of a loaded gun.

- The pistols which were commonly carried had floating firing pins, or no firing-pin block safeties, making them not drop-safe with a round chambered.

[towerclimber37]

While Rabbi and I don't always agree, this time we do...cadillac, there is more than 1 way to do something and I have actually seen training videos of this method in action. its' extremely effective when employed the way the israelis' intended it to be.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

The issue was that with a stroke of a pen in 1948 Israel becme a country for the first time in 2000 years. They had no real indigenous arms manufacturing capability at that point and were armed with a hodge podge of different things acquired from various countries.

You might have 10 guys with 10 different pistols. How do you train these guys to carry them without shooting themselves and bystanders when there are 10 different manuals of arms? Have everyone carry with an empty chamber with safety off. That is why the Isrealis carried empty chamber. NOT because of any tactical advantage.

[towerclimber37]

In otherwords, they took the advice from fairbairn and sykes...I just finished reading that manual...very informative!

[Guest rockytop]

that is a stupid way to carry a pistol.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You know what they say about opinions. My opinion is: "If the Israeli military is trained that way, I wouldn't want to slap leather with them when I had one in the chamber."

Those guys AND GALS "put it on the line 24/7/365." I admire them. Wish we Americans were as loyal.

WAIT! This thread was about method, not dedication. Sorry about the rant.

[Guest Mugster]

In otherwords, they took the advice from fairbairn and sykes...I just finished reading that manual...very informative!

Yes they did.

There is no right and wrong in handgunning besides safety. There is only understanding and practice, and figuring out what works best for you.

[Guest Phantom6]

The question is... did Sasquatch survive this encounter or did your friend Gil manage to take him out?

Did you notice in that second pic where he is charging his firearm that he had his Sasquatch tag attached to his pistol just in case he bagged one?

Well, I wouldn't carry with an empty chamber as I consider it rather silly (I guess the incredibly ignorant and foolish comments will be hurled again) because most modern firearms will not go off unless the trigger is pulled. cadillacdude1975 makes a valid point regarding attack from the left. Something else to consider is possible incapacitation of either the off or even the strong arm prior to the draw. Neither your "member" or your teeth would be of much help then. You'd have to rack it between your knees (well below my "member" I'm afraid) or upside down in the crook of your elbow. I know without a doubt that I can get off a round into my target in an extreme CQB with a rock 'n shoot technique faster than most IDF trained "Israeli Draw" shooters. While the IDF are no slouches when it comes to fighting and dying this technique was taught for situations that we are not likely to find ourselves in.

The Rabbi wrote: You are dealing with people who have had on-going combat for close to 50 years.

I'm afraid my friend that you should re-read the history of Palestine and the birth of the nation of Israel. It's been well over 60 years. The IDF has it's 60th anniversary coming up this next 26 May. Prior to that, the Palmach and a couple of underground groups were the defensive force of the Jewish people in Palestine that grew into the IDF in '48.

Molonlabetn is correct when he brings up the fact that the mixed bag of firearms available to these forces was one reason for this training and that many of those old pistols had floating firing pins, or no firing-pin block safeties, making them not drop-safe with a round chambered. Modern firearms have largely eliminated the need for this type of carry for the most part.

I'll chamber a round and be able to draw and shoot one-handed, thank you.

[Marswolf]

What Phantom said.

[The Rabbi]

Well, I wouldn't carry with an empty chamber as I consider it rather silly (I guess the incredibly ignorant and foolish comments will be hurled again) because most modern firearms will not go off unless the trigger is pulled. cadillacdude1975 makes a valid point regarding attack from the left. Something else to consider is possible incapacitation of either the off or even the strong arm prior to the draw. Neither your "member" or your teeth would be of much help then. You'd have to rack it between your knees (well below my "member" I'm afraid) or upside down in the crook of your elbow. I know without a doubt that I can get off a round into my target in an extreme CQB with a rock 'n shoot technique faster than most IDF trained "Israeli Draw" shooters. While the IDF are no slouches when it comes to fighting and dying this technique was taught for situations that we are not likely to find ourselves in.

Ignorant and foolish about covers it. Ignorant because you've gone away from seeing this without learning anything as a result. Foolish because you've failed to see the genius in the method.

Doubtless you will never find yourself in the situation of being given an unfamiliar pistol and told to put it into action right away. None of us will. But if you did you would be clueless what to do. This man to my knowledge has never shot a SIG P229 in his life. (He tells me in Israel they used the FN) He hasn't shot any pistol in 10 years he told me. But he was able to draw and fire this gun in a credibly rapid and accurate way.

As I say (and have said repeatedly) this method won't work well for the private citizen who can choose his firearm carefully and practice with it. It wasn't developed for that. Judging it on that standard is a mistake. But every method has an advantage and a smart person can learn something from all of them.

[BimmerFreak]

Ignorant and foolish about covers it. Ignorant because you've gone away from seeing this without learning anything as a result. Foolish because you've failed to see the genius in the method.

... But every method has an advantage and a smart person can learn something from all of them.

Not everyone can be as open minded as you Rabbi (/end sarcasm)

While I agree that this method can/has worked effectively by some of the most battle hardened soldiers on the planet, I think its ironic you are ragging on people for being close minded and not embracing a technique that is contrary to what they know and understand.

When you lecture someone on the need to be open minded and progressive in their thinking, make sure you are standing in front of a mirror

[jughead]

anyone here tried the 21 ft. rule with an empty chamber. i havent beat my son with cocked and locked yet. all of this and i knew when he was going to move.

[The Rabbi]

Not everyone can be as open minded as you Rabbi (/end sarcasm)

While I agree that this method can/has worked effectively by some of the most battle hardened soldiers on the planet, I think its ironic you are ragging on people for being close minded and not embracing a technique that is contrary to what they know and understand.

When you lecture someone on the need to be open minded and progressive in their thinking, make sure you are standing in front of a mirror

Before you start lecturing someone you ought to look at the facts. The fact is that while I certainly have opinions and voice them I also recognize the legitimacy of other approaches to a problem. I may point out their shortfalls and difficulties but I have never told someone they have to do something my way.

Yeah, not everyone is as open minded about guns and training as I am. Your sarcasm is ill-placed. When I see someone who is supposed to be a teacher dismiss out of hand a method because "that ain't the way I do it" I have to question how effective that person is going to be. We've already had a thread on one teacher who epitomizes the "my way or the highway" approach. That isn't helpful. It won't encourage people to take up shooting and it won't increase the knowledge and skills of people already in it. An attitude like that only demonstrates what an a-hole the person is. Certainly not anyone I'd recommend.

[molonlabetn]

I don't see anyone other than cadillacdude saying that the Israelis were stupid or foolish for implementing that method as a safeguard from the lack of dependability of their pistols... only reasoning why such a method would hold no benefit for them personally, and would not recommend it, because they carry modern firearms which do not require such methods to carry safely, and there are some potentially harmful drawbacks to the method in certain scenarios.

It's great that cond. 3 carry works for them, carrying a gun the way it was designed to be works for me (and you too, as you said yourself). I don't see any real disagreement... Noone is suggesting that the Israelis change their methods. Most are simply observing that the method is only a crutch by which to overcome inadequacies in the pistol itself, and is superfluous for those using modern firearms with which they are familiar.

[Marswolf]

It seems to me that this technique was a solution to a problem that largely doesn't exist these days. I really see some severe disadvantages in not keeping a round in the chamber.

But it was interesting to see how Israelis do this. The one person I know who carry this way (G21 SF) does not turn the gun on its side when preparing to rack but brings it upright to his side. I can see positioning and mechanical advantages both ways.

[Rightwinger]

I'm getting that headache again Maw....can you get me the asprin?

Come on everyone, people are watching.

Take something from the postings or choose not to. Don't rip each other just because this medium makes it easy to.

What I want to know is how do I rack the slide on that pistol I was forced to leave at home because some work I had to do was on Federal (Corps of Engineer land) and I was afraid me or the truck would get checked. What training can help me there!

See, theres always a bigger problem!

[BimmerFreak]

Before you start lecturing someone you ought to look at the facts. The fact is that while I certainly have opinions and voice them I also recognize the legitimacy of other approaches to a problem. I may point out their shortfalls and difficulties but I have never told someone they have to do something my way.

Yeah, not everyone is as open minded about guns and training as I am. Your sarcasm is ill-placed. When I see someone who is supposed to be a teacher dismiss out of hand a method because "that ain't the way I do it" I have to question how effective that person is going to be. We've already had a thread on one teacher who epitomizes the "my way or the highway" approach. That isn't helpful. It won't encourage people to take up shooting and it won't increase the knowledge and skills of people already in it. An attitude like that only demonstrates what an a-hole the person is. Certainly not anyone I'd recommend.

1. Chill dude. I was just busting your balls.

2. Its your OPINION that you are open minded.

[molonlabetn]

Are there any other countries/agencies which use this method of carry, as a rule? I seem to recall that the US military carried their 1911s in condition 3 during the world-wars... but I'm not sure if there was much specific training in how to most quickly bring it into action.