All you 9mm guys out there

[Erik88]

Whats up with 115gr vs 124gr vs 147 gr with regards to FMJ. Are there any advantages/disadvantages to each? According to this guy 147 grain should NEVER be used.

Ammunition For The Self-Defense Firearm

My second question is this. How many rounds do you test of each type before you decide it is safe to carry in your gun? I want to find a good defensive round for my 9mm but obviously I need to test it first. But since it gets really expensive to buy these I was wondering how many I need to test to be safe. Currently I carry Remington JHP's. I have put about 30rds through my gun w/o any problems.

[TNrifleman]

I,ve tested alot and I prefer the 124 grain in speer gold dot but the remington golden sabre are good and the winchester sxt are good to. The winchester sxt were the only ones that performed expansion wise everytime in the .40 cal ,havent tested the 9mm but i would say it is just as good. Anything in 115 would be my last choice for carry.

[Smith]

Talk about opening the proverbial can of worms! In short the 9mm is a velocity dependent round when it is a HP. The author is talking about the fact that 147g is too heavey to reach the velocities needed for proper expansion. Unlike some other calibers where bigger is better the 9mm is not necessarily in that category. The .40 for instance works just fine in the heavier grains, .45 as well. BTW FMJ is a different story because expansion is not an issue. In that case you want the heavier load.

Here is an excerpt form Mr Hawks site talking about it.

More important to civilian and police shooters is the effectiveness of the best bullets in the calibers, which for most purposes are expanding JHP bullets. The top load for the 9x19 is the Cor-Bon +P 115grain JHP, which is 91% effective in achieving a one shot stop. (For comparison, the top load for the .45 ACP is the Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok, which is 92% effective.) The 115 grain +P loads from Federal, Remington, and Winchester are all close, averaging about 89% one shot stops.

The effectiveness of the 9x19 goes down as the bullet weight increases and velocity decreases. The best 124 grain JHP loads average about 81-84% one shot stops, and the best 147 grain JHP load delivers about 76% one shot stops.

This is why I like a 124g HST +p load. A little extra weight while maintaining the proper velocity.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Smith

[Tacblack]

115 or 124's either is ideal. I use 124's in competition and usually carry 115+p but have carried and tested both in my guns.

I load up the gun as it would be and go to my test area and run it dry reload and do it again for my carry ammo and good enough. Of course my carry guns have been shot with range ammo and comp ammo before this to have confidence in them.

It is pricey but piece of mind usually is.

147's were sub gun ammo that the FBI saw Navy Seals using and thought it must be the holy grail of 9mm, but that was purpose built for suppressed MP5's. It didn't transfer to 4inch handguns so well. So I heard years ago when 147's were the new thing.

[redneck]

I cary Hornady Critical Defence in 115 gr. It is a great round.

[Guest mikedwood]

Good question. I carry the 124 Gold Dot and was thinking of changing to the 147. I'll keep an eye on this thread.

[Guest m&pc9]

I carry the Remington Golden Sabre Bonded 124gr +p. I think that Knoxville PD carrys that round. If its good enough for KPD it should do what I need.

[Smith]

I carry the Remington Golden Sabre Bonded 124gr +p. I think that Knoxville PD carrys that round. If its good enough for KPD it should do what I need.

Just remember that a most PD operate on a budget:D and buy supplies accordingly. Ammo choice is not always high on the scrutiny list for effectiveness. Doesn't mean it's bad just that it may not be the best.

BTW Some carry PD ammo as a legal claim if the need ever arose.

[Guest m&pc9]

Just remember that a most PD operate on a budget:D and buy supplies accordingly. Ammo choice is not always high on the scrutiny list for effectiveness. Doesn't mean it's bad just that it may not be the best.

BTW Some carry PD ammo as a legal claim if the need ever arose.

I am on a budget too.

[ftncityfatboy]

I cary Hornady Critical Defence in 115 gr. It is a great round.

me too

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I don't carry my G17, but it is well equipped with about 1500 rounds of 124gr Golden

Sabers as a backup gun. I reload them in .45, also.

[glockster157]

From what I have read compared to what I have tested the best out there is the Winchester ranger +P+ 127 Ranger load. I chronographed those from my Glock at 1227fps at 10'. Not bad for 9mm. I agree the 147's are too slow for expansion. There may be some exceptions. This newer Federal FMJ expanding ball looks interesting to me. It looks like it flattens nicely on impact but I am unsure of penetration. I still have a lot of the Winchester for now. I also agree with the Corbon velocity argument. I would rather depend on velocity for energy and penetration than bullet construction alone for performance i.e. Hydroshocks.

[Guest pig832]

I am retired from a midwestern pd, fairly large city, and despite what was posted earlier our dept did an exhaustive amount of testing, and for overall ease of handling and performance they went to a 115 grain hydroshock round, it was one they sold only to law enforcement at the time. Great round, great performance.

[gnmwilliams]

I wouldn't worry about the whole "one shot stop" measurments. Reliable expansion and shot placement under stress are what you need to focus on. I don't think you'd be able to find anyone willing to stand in front of a 147 grain vs. a 115 to test it anyway so don't worry as much about that. However, I do agree that most of the better performing rounds these days are the lighter weight, bonded core rounds.

[Erik88]

Ok, so I'm seeing that 124gr is preferred. Anyone want to give a shot at the second part of my question?

[Patrick Henry]

I have read you should shoot 50 rounds of your ammo to ensure it feeds properly before you trust your life to it.

[titan14]

^^^^^^^what he said.

Oh....and I use the 115g Hornady Critical Defense.

Edited February 20, 2010 by titan14

[Guest Bronker]

Ok, so I'm seeing that 124gr is preferred. Anyone want to give a shot at the second part of my question?

I'm sure you will get good information from persons much more qualified than me, but here's what I do.

1. When I get a gun that is new to me (new or used), the first thing I do is field strip it, clean the crap out of it, and inspect it. Then, I put it all back together, and shoot 200 rounds of range ammo through it.

2. I take it back apart, clean it, and shoot 100 more of range ammo.

3. Take it apart again, clean it, and shoot 100 more rounds through it.

4. Without cleaning it this time, I shoot 50 rounds of what I intend to carry as SD ammo.

If I've made it through all four steps without hiccups that i am sure are not my fault I will feel confident that I am good to go.

The first hiccup I have, I start over at step 3. I want at least 100 flawless rounds PLUS my 50 SD rounds before I feel comfortable.

I want 50 flawless rounds of my SD ammo, above all of the range ammo, before I'm satisfied. If I have problems...I keep feeding it SD ammo, or change the SD ammo altogether.

So far, with all of the guns I carry, I've put a minimum of 400 rounds through them before I'm comfortable.

However, for example, my wife's Kahr PM9 locked up on me within Step 1. On the first cleaning after the first 100 rounds, while putting it back together, the thing locked up on me. After many calls to Kahr, and a ton of help from OhShoot here, it turned out to be a bad recoil guide rod spring assembly. It has been flawless since, but I've started all over. It had failed on me, so it starts all over as if a new gun.

In summary...yes it is expensive to do it this way, but as someone earlier pointed out correctly...peace of mind usually does have a price!

Hope this helps!

[kwe45919]

I carry 127gr +p Rangers in my G26......no issues to date. I've put about 300rds of them through my Glock. My secondary loads are Hornaday 124gr TAP......I've shot about 200rds of them through my Glock with no issues...

As far as how many rounds to shoot through your weapon would slightly depend on the type of handgun you're using. Most Glocks normally eat just about anything and have no issues doing so. Both my Glocks have eaten everything from the cheapest Packastani or wolf ammo to the expensive stuff like Extreme Shock and MagSafe and never had one hiccup. No FTF or FTE. If you're carry weapon is known to be picky (such as was my Kimber Pro Carry II) you might want to spend a little more time with your carry rounds to ensure you "shouldn't" have a problem.

One more little tip...no that it really matters to some.....but if you carry a 124gr round.......practicing with a similar round can help in the accuracy department as well as follow up shots. There are a lot of people whom will practice with a general 115 WWB round and then carry a 124gr+P round. Sure I go the the range and blast through a couple o' hundred rounds and yes they're usually 115gr. I call those my "triggertime" rounds. I also have some Winchester 124gr NATO +p ball ammo, to compliment my Ranger carry rounds, that I use when it's time to get serious and challenge my skills without killing my actual SD ammo. Both are the same gr and feel the same way when shooting them.......

Edited February 21, 2010 by kwe45919

[Clone]

The modern 147gr HP's are designed to expand at the slower speeds and so will perform just fine. In fact they tend to carry more momentum to the target and penetrate deeper. Considering reaching the vitals is more important than temporary cavity's, I carried Winchester's 147gr HP for years until I start reloading my own. More than anything use what works best in your pistol and penetrates to the vitals.

Some interesting tests

9x19mm

terminal 9mm luger

[MacGyver]

I carry Federal 147gr HST's exclusively. Anything I've ever dug that particular round out of out of has shown great expansion characteristics and weight retention. I like the fact that they stay subsonic, are quieter and have less felt recoil in my particular weapons. YMMV.

I think a lot of the stigma surrounding the rounds are due to the early adoption of first generation rounds for purposes other than that which they were intended for (subsonic SMG's).

[Guest .45]

The modern 147gr HP's are designed to expand at the slower speeds and so will perform just fine.

+1.

to the OP: the info in that link is pretty dated. most of the 147 gr bullets he refers to are approx. 20 year-old technology (hydrashok, silvertip, etc).

the conclusions of Marshall & Sanow, et al...are still being debated today. some folks whole heartedly disagree with them. I am not nearly educated/qualified enough to make that argument...but you can read some for yourself here:

FirearmsTactical.com - Web Site Index and Navigation Center

there are articles from approx. 1998 - 2000 that deal with this dispute. in any case, this site is full of useful ammo information.

as far as good 9mm carry ammo goes, read here:

Service Pistol Duty and Self-Defense Loads - M4Carbine.net Forums

these are the recommended loads:

9 mm:

Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)

Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)

Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)

Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)

Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)

Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)

Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)

Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)

Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

the author of the link above is GK Roberts, a highly respected ballistics/terminal performance authority in the LEO/military community. I would take his word over anything you read on chuckhawks.com.

as far as how much ammo to test run thru your carry gun...it's really up to you to determine what you can trust. you will hear many conflicting reports, from "10-15 rounds" on up to 200-500 rounds. most of these opinions are being asserted by folks (like me) who have never pulled a trigger in combat. take what we say with a grain of salt. listen to people who have been there/done that.

most of them will tell you that you need a minimum of 500-1,000 malfunction free rounds. (at least 50% of which should be the actual carry load).

personally, depending on the platform/type of pistol...I usually run approx. 200-500 rounds of FMJ, and 200 rounds of my chosen carry load.

my life, and the lives of my family are worth the cost of this ammo testing.

hope this helps....

.45

[Guest rystine]

The modern 147gr HP's are designed to expand at the slower speeds and so will perform just fine. In fact they tend to carry more momentum to the target and penetrate deeper. Considering reaching the vitals is more important than temporary cavity's

+1

With most of the most popular handgun rounds, heavier is better. Penetration is more important that expansion and heavier bullets penetrate better than lighter bullets.

[molonlabetn]

Made me laugh...

The author certianly has a strong opinion about 147gr 9mm, but fails to provide any reason for it, aside from abstract accusations of them being 'weak', 'malfunction prone' and 'worthless'.

I'm guessing that this sentiment came about from the Miami shootout in the 80's during which the FBI, using 147gr Silvertip ammunition, failed to stop the BGs. But, what he fails to take into consideration is why the bullets failed (and the fact that lighter 9mm projectiles would have likely failed as well, in the same scenario).

But, whether it be because 147gr projectiles have come further than those days, or the 147gr scare was a myth exacerbated by a single incident, I have found that 147gr Gold-Dot 9mm projectiles, pushed to the correct velocity will actually penetrate deeper and expand just as much as most other loads... which is why I carry Double-Tap 147gr 9mm +p.

Here's some actual data, and a more objective article: Speer Gold Dot Ammunition, Ordnance Gelatin Calibration, Anatomically Correct Targets

Here's the load data for the 147gr Double-Tap load (along with other Double-Tap loads): Gold Dot Gelatin Test - Glock Talk

Here are official gelatin results for all of the DoubleTap loads!

All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

DoubleTap 9mm+P

115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"

124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"

147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion

135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"

155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"

165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"

180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"

200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"

DoubleTap .357 Sig

125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum

125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"

158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap 10mm

135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty

155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"

165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"

165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"

180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"

180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"

200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"

230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP

185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"

200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"

230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

DoubleTap 9X25

115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty

125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"

147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"

For those who are asking, here it is!

-Mike

[JReedEsq]

I'm not sure about the idea that the 147 are "malfunction prone" comes from... They work just fine for me in my Glocks. I've got 16 147 grain Hornady JHPs in my IWB rig right now. For me, I can't tell any difference in shooting them v/s the WWB that I practice with. As previously stated, however, I don't plan on anything being a "magic bullet". I'm more interested in learning how to consistantly shoot tight groups.