125 gr vs 158 gr

[Guest Mugster]

I may be wrong here, but I was under the assumption that jacketed loads built MORE pressure, as copper is harder to shove down a barrell than the normally softer lead in most non-jacketed rounds.

Other way around. You get a better seal with lead, so generally in the same weight and type, you have to back off a grain for a lead bullet. If you look in the accurate manual, a good example is a .45 acp lead round nose and FMJ in 230 grain. The LRN will be a grain behind the FMJ. Plated is somewhere in between.

[musicman]

Are seal and pressure the same thing?

I fully agree and understand that lead seals better than copper jacketed bullets. That is a function of the hardness and malleability of the metal. What I don't agree on is that lead bullets create more PRESSURE.

From Hodgdgon's site, these are their max loads:

158 GR. CAST LSWC 158 Universal .358" 1.610" 6.2 1247 33,400 CUP

158 GR. HDY XTP 158 Universal .357" 1.580" 6.3 1133 39,300 CUP

This data shows that with .1gr less powder, using bullets of the same weight, but different material, that the LEAD bullet will be going 113fps FASTER with .1gr LESS powder than it's jacketed counterpart. I hesitate to even mention that this occurs at 5,900 fewer CUP than the jacketed load generates because the jacketed load DOES use one more tenth of a grain of powder. Notice also that this is using a .358 diameter lead bullet, versus the .357 jeacketed bullet. As loads get towards max, pressures seem to increase dramatically, so that may be more of a function of powder weight, since that is one of the two variables in this equation. Even still, it doesn't seem to me that they backed off .1 gr for the lead load because they were worried about pressure.

Please help me understand what you are saying. I would like to know if I've been wrong and the reasons why. Can you find me some data to show me what you talking about?

Granted, a lot of the data for lead bullets shows not only a reduced powder charge, but also much reduced pressure and velocities. This is usually understood as being a function of lead bullets' weaknesses at high velocities. (leading, breaking apart ineffectively on impact, etc) Those loads are DESIGNED to run at those speeds, even if we aren't even halfway up the max pressure scale for a given load.

[musicman]

For the heck of it, here is some data using your .45acp 230gr example:

230 GR. LRN 230 Titegroup .452" 1.200" 4.0 751 12,500 CUP

230 GR. HDY FMJ FP 230 Titegroup .451" 1.200" 4.4 744 15,000 CUP

Again, more velocity with les powder and significantly less pressure.

[Guest Mugster]

For the heck of it, here is some data using your .45acp 230gr example:

230 GR. LRN 230 Titegroup .452" 1.200" 4.0 751 12,500 CUP

230 GR. HDY FMJ FP 230 Titegroup .451" 1.200" 4.4 744 15,000 CUP

Again, more velocity with les powder and significantly less pressure.

Well, pressure is affected or effected by alot of things, probably the biggest of which is bullet seating depth/headspace. Comparing weight alone isn't very fair, the bullet shape and seating depth being the problem. Here's a closer match, although not perfect, and the suggested OAL's are sorta close as well. I don't know anything about titegroup, but #5 is really good for .45 acp.

On page 5 of the online accurate reloading manual (accurate #5 powder):

Montana cast bullet, 230gr RNBB start load: 7.7gr max: 8.5gr pres: 19,800

Nosler FMJ, 230gr (hardball) start load: 7.8 max:8.7 pres:19,300

968 vs 927 listed velocity, which is BS IMO. I get around 850ish with 8.3 grains with most any jacketed or plated bullet, which is a good dupe for most any expensive self defence round. I can push 900ish with 8.5 grains.

You might get a get a bit more out of lead velocity wise at the same pressure as a jacketed bullet, because it seals better partly from bullet design. I've never been interested enough to beat a chrono to death checking it out. Although with the price of bullets, we may all be shooting lead pretty soon. Other good bullets to compare are plated or fmj vs lead in a semi wadcutter in .357.

[Guest Mugster]

For the heck of it, here is some data using your .45acp 230gr example:

230 GR. LRN 230 Titegroup .452" 1.200" 4.0 751 12,500 CUP

230 GR. HDY FMJ FP 230 Titegroup .451" 1.200" 4.4 744 15,000 CUP

Again, more velocity with les powder and significantly less pressure.

Well, pressure is affected or effected by alot of things, probably the biggest of which is bullet seating depth/headspace. Comparing weight alone isn't very fair, the bullet shape and seating depth being the problem. Here's a closer match, although not perfect, and the suggested OAL's are sorta close as well. I don't know anything about titegroup, but #5 is really good for .45 acp.

On page 5 of the online accurate reloading manual (accurate #5 powder):

Montana cast bullet, 230gr RNBB start load: 7.7gr max: 8.5gr pres: 19,800

Nosler FMJ, 230gr (hardball) start load: 7.8 max:8.7 pres:19,300

968 vs 927 listed velocity, which is BS in an absolute sense, IMO. I get around 850ish with 8.3 grains with most any jacketed or plated bullet (which is a good dupe for most any expensive self defence round). I can push 900ish with 8.5 grains. Although I sorta trust it for comparative purposes. I'd tend to not shoot cast that fast.

You might get a get a bit more out of lead velocity wise at the same pressure as a jacketed bullet, because it seals better partly from bullet design. I've never been interested enough to beat a chrono to death checking it out. Although with the price of bullets, we may all be shooting lead pretty soon. Other good bullets to compare are plated or fmj vs lead in a semi wadcutter in .357.

[musicman]

Good info there. Well now that my world is on it's side, I'll have to mentally wrestle with this for awhile. I honestly always heard and thought the reverse was true.

Thanks for that!

[Guest Mugster]

I don't know that your word is on its side. Pressure/velocity vs bullet composition and design has puzzled people for a long time...and wildcatters continue to blow stuff up inventing new rounds. There's no easy answer to most of this stuff.

A good guy to ask this question of might be Jeff Quinn. I've asked him a few questions before on loading 250gr+ bullets for .45 acp and gotten a quick response. The technical reloading stuff he responds to personally and not on the web page. I believe he enjoys a good discussion.

http://www.gunblast.com/QA.htm

[Guest Jamesmb]

Hey Mike think I finally got the hang of this reloading. Got my digital calipers and they all are falling between 1.585 and 1.590 inches. I did check some magtech and Remmington rounds I had and they were both shorter then these, from 1.568 to 1.582 and I even pulled a couple bullets.

[Mike.357]

James, make sure you test fire some before you make a lot of them.

Just to be sure there are troubles.

[Guest Jamesmb]

Seems when I put that Unique lube on them, they do slide in easier, but when pouring in the powder some of it hangs to the side of that piece of the loader they call the body. Hope not losing much. Wonder how much it takes to make a max load? I have a 1cc scoop, but that might be too much.

[Guest Jamesmb]

I just popped two primers now when I was putting them in the casings wonder what is going on? Kinda hurts your hearing for a bit!

[Mike.357]

resize and prime all you are going to do in one stretch. Then clean out the sizer. The little powder that sticks is insignificant.

Don't go adding any more powder and changing what we determined is a safe recipe. basically you are making plinking rounds not atomic bombs, keep it that way!

[Guest Jamesmb]

What do you mean resize? I just decapped, capped, flared shell, put in powder and bullet and seated and then mearsured overall length with calipers then crimped. Hope that is the right way.

[Guest Mugster]

I just popped two primers now when I was putting them in the casings wonder what is going on? Kinda hurts your hearing for a bit!

Yeah, thats not good. When you're priming you have to go by feel. If it takes too much pressure something is not right. You should use about the same amount of force for priming brass of a like batch. When something is not right, ease off, don't force it. If you're beginning with new brass or once fired reloads, they will be a bit stiff. If it goes in really easy...thats when you need a judgement call to discard the brass as shot out.

When you're starting a fresh primer, give it easy force and slowly increase the pressure. You should feel it when it begins to move and just ride it home. Once it stops that is usually it. Its worth checking to make sure that it seated down in there good.

Its probably a good idea to wear eye protection when priming. I've never had one go off on me, but i've mangled a few and wondered why it didn't pop.

[Mike.357]

What do you mean resize?

When you drive the casing into the "socket" you are resizing.

[Guest Jamesmb]

Ok Mike I gottcha now. What is trimming? I was seeing they sell a tool where you can trim your brass?

I did notice on some of those rounds I made last night, some slight bulging in the brass in mid body of the brass. Dont know if that is due to hammering too hard or just this brass I am using, once fired. The loader instructions says you can reuse brass 100 times. They chamber ok in my revolver though.

[Mike.357]

I do not believe you need a trimming tool for reloading for a revolver. Stretching of brass occurs in a auto loader where the brass is forced in and out when the gun is fired. I do measure a few pieces of brass before reloading just to make sure they are still in spec.

I don't know abotu bulging in casings. I have never noticed this before, but I assume if they still chamber then you are good to go.

Someone will chime in most likely with a better answer.

[Guest Jamesmb]

Shot them today and a few were weak, but most were pretty good rounds. One primer was sticking out a bit so had trouble turning the cylinder. When I did shoot that round, it was like half what the others were, I guess the gunpowder is not burning totally in those. The RSO who teaches a reloading class, said that when you resize and reuse the brass over several times, you get them getting somewhat elongated cause the brass is getting a little thinner so the shell gets longer. These now are about 1.281 or so so within specs, twice fired brass.

Do you have a table Mike telling what the different measuring cup sizes are in grains? For .7cc of AAN9 = 10.7 grains with a lead bullet at 158 grain I was wondering what a 1cc cup would =? Think it is time to push the envelope.

[Marswolf]

James, you aren't putting us on are you?

The cups are fine. Essentially the same as the variable volume measure that comes with most sets, but you really need to use a scale for reloading anything other than shotgun shells.

I've never - ever - had primers go off when reloading. I've never had case bulge problems. I've never had case elongation be a problem, although I do have a case trimmer for when I need it. You are having a lot of strange problems for a new reloader.

If you are having these problems, you need to get a Sierra, or other, reloading manual and/or get with someone who knows what they are doing. Reloading for plinking is not rocket science, although it can get very technical if you are working for the "perfect" sniper-type load.

[Guest Jamesmb]

I am not putting anybody on. The bulges I am seeing are very slight and they fit fine into my Smith & Wesson. But I can feel and see them. I showed them today to the RSO. These were just once fired brass.

I have not said I am having enlongation problems, but that topic came up when I was talking with the RSO. Makes sense to me over time and several reloads with brass that the only place for it to go when resizing would be that way. Maybe that is not noticed in my caliber or only several times does this happen, you would be much more of an expert then me.

I did unfortunately have two primers go off last night.

I was just asking Mike, I believe he has the table he mentioned to me over the telephone that gives grain size for a cup size of a particular powder. I was just wondering if a 1cc cup of AAN9 in grains would give me without going over maximum, that is all.

[Mike.357]

James if you want to increase the recipe we worked out you really ought to take Mars' advice and get a scale and reloading manual.

The info I had you working with insured that your rounds were going to be safe. I am not comfortable being involved with you increasing powder in rounds on my say so. The scale I have does not go lower than .3cc

You really need to be more observant about primers sticking out of the casing, that is a big safety issue.

I don't know about bulging cases as none of my .357 brass is bulged that I am aware of, and some of those cases have been used up to 5 times now. No elongation problem with them either.

Mars said

I've never - ever - had primers go off when reloading.

Mars he is using a Lee Loader, not a press. I use one for .357mag and .45ACP.

I have never had a .357mag pistol primer pop while reloading but the Wolf Lg. Pistol primers I use for .45 regulary pop on the rate of about 1 for 50. I know I need to get a tool for setting primers other than the Lee Loader method.

Reloading for plinking

That is all I reload for and all I am comfortable with. I do not push the envelope as it were. Lower powered rounds to be safe is all I want to do.

[Guest Mugster]

Well, I use a lee load-all for shotgun. I've never set off one of those primers either. If your setting off 1 in 50, you need some technical advice or a change in technique. You should never normally set off a primer...you're going to hurt yourself eventually if you keep it up.

[Guest Jamesmb]

Only one primer discharged tonight out of 49.

[Mike.357]

If your setting off 1 in 50, you need some technical advice or a change in technique.

so tell me

[Guest Mugster]

Well, don't just yank the lever or push the primer in whatever way your doing it blindly. Start it gently and push it in there. If your crushing it, its not lined up with the primer hole straight. If your hitting so hard it pops, use less of a hit. There should be a different feel between a correctly seating primer and one that is not. If they all feel the same, get a different priming device.