A.P.P.S. Training

[Guest tadams]

I know some of you have been to A.P.P.S. for some classes, so I am hoping to get opinions and answers from the folks that have been there. http://www.appstraining.com/

First off, how much does the Handgun Carry Permit Class cost?

I've done a lot of research in choosing the school, but am a little apprehensive of getting my money's worth and 2 days of time worth. Can anyone help put those concerns to rest?

Is there any thing you can think of that I might need to know or want to know, other than what's posted on their site?

For those of you who also have professional instruction from elsewhere - how does the A.P.P.S. class compare? (with hindsight being 20/20 and all that)

Give'm to me, ya'll.... $.02 worth at a time!

[John Wall]

I took Buford's class as a refresher class several years ago. Take what information you can use, and delete what you cannot. Auto pistols, as a rule, are scoffed at by APPS. I like the Glock, but it takes training to be proficient with. Buford prefers the Ruger SP-101 revolver. For those who will not practice and train, he may have a point.

[Guest Shooting Coach]

As the weather gets colder and nastier, using an outdoor range becomes an ordeal.

Guns and Leather and Gun City both have indoor ranges. Their classes are one day.

In fair weather, an outdoor range is a pleasant experience. This time of year can make a lot of difference in getting a lot out of your class or just wanting to get done and get in out of the cold.

[Guest tadams]

As the weather gets colder and nastier, using an outdoor range becomes an ordeal. ...This time of year can make a lot of difference in getting a lot out of your class or just wanting to get done and get in out of the cold.

Point well taken.

[Guest tadams]

Take what information you can use, and delete what you cannot.

If I'm gonna be throwing away some info anyway, is it worth investing two days of time an hour and a half away from home?

Auto pistols, as a rule, are scoffed at by APPS.

Auto is exactly what I'll be using. I don't own a revolver. (yet)

I know of one place that will not accept your money if you walk in the door with anything smaller than a 9mm, auto or round. They gave a reason, but it went in one ear and out the other, filed under "BS."

IMO they should allow you to use, in class, what you'll plan to carry on the street.

Also John - How much was it? Do you remember?

[Guest ETS_Inc]

I took my Carry Permit class from Buford, and took the Armed Security Guard class at the same time.

It was two days of Buford cursing and swearing, telling us how great a cop he was, with plenty of bashing any guns besides Beretta 92's and Ruger SP101's, and very, very little information about the law or how to use a handgun.

Then we went to the range. We had to drive from Nashville, out to Smyrna, to use the National Guard range. I took my class in January, and let me tell you, standing out there for 4 hours was less than enjoyable. Not only that, but Buford requires his students to shoot using the most assinine retention technique in the world. You have to turn your body 90 degrees from the target, and shoot with your gun held next to your non-dominant shoulder. (If I'm that close to a threat that I have to worry about them taking my gun, I'm firing from the hip, as soon as I can clear leather. At that range, it's highly unlikely I'll miss.)

Of course, that didn't apply to everyone. I watched him certify an elderly lady (probably in excess of 70) as an armed security guard, who couldn't even hold her own gun up. Instead of Buford's normal grip, she stood facing the target, with her elbows at her side, her Model 19 in front of her. An RSO stood behind her, supporting her forearms with his hands, as she sllllooowwwwwllllyyy cocked her revolver and fired each round single action. He certified that woman to carry a gun professionally, guarding somone's business, in this post-9/11 world. Some other security guard was going to being relying on her to be their partner, backing them up, if need be, and she couldn't even hold up her gun.

If you bring a Glock, be prepared for belittlement about your gun being used by police agencies simply because it's used by the lowest bidder.

There are many other classes in the Nashville area that are better, cheaper, use an indoor range, and are run much, much more professionally.

Of course, I do teach the classes for ASP in Joelton. Therefore, I am Buford's competitor. However, even if I weren't, I wouldn't, in good conscience, recommend his classes to anyone. Even if you don't come see us in Joelton, please go elsewhere. There are too many other choices to waste your time and money with Buford.

My personal and professional recommendations would be, in order of preference:

1) ASP in Joelton (of course)

2) Guns and Leather in Greenbriar

3) On Target in Murfreesboro

4) Austin's Firearms School in Oak Ridge (Phantom6 - only reason he's 4, as opposed to 2 is distance from Nashville)

5) The Range

...

100) Gun ****ty (er, I mean City, sorry 'bout that) on Murfreesboro Road

...

1,000,000,001) Buford Tune @ APPS

[Guest Shooting Coach]

Dear Tadams

Many of us have history with Buford. (see above post) What type of auto are you wanting to carry? You will retain around 20% of what you get from any class.

A two day class will have you driving six hours. I would say under those conditions that Buford does not have enough going for his class to make that drive worth it. All the carry laws and regs can be found o the Internet.

If you can strip, clean, safely load and unload your firearm and have knowledge of external safeties, if any, and are familiar with safe handling, you do not need to go through the "this is where the bullet comes out" speech.

The "bubba" condition of self defense is "CAN YOU GET AWAY FROM THE PERSON/PERSONS?" If so, you are NOT in a self defense situation. Evading a bad guy is a lot less paperwork than using your firearm!

Become familiar with the Assault/Aggravated Assault statutes for Tn. They were revamped in 1997.

As a trainer, I train the Armed Civilian; 1. Situational awareness. 2. Evasion. 3. Escape. 4. Knowledge of Self Defense law. 5. Safe firearm handling and service. 6. Effective deployment of Lethal Force when appropriate. 7. Use of the MINIMUM amount of force needed to protect yourself and others. 8. Develop a POSITIVE witness pool. 9. Positive communication with Police. 10. Being an effective witness for yourself, NOT against yourself.

Familiarity with your firearm is part of required training for the permit class. However, I strongly advise you to be familiar if not proficient with the firearm you are going to carry. At the range, you will not be in a panic, will not be under the debilitating effect of a huge adrenalin dump, and your cognitive brain will be firing on all cylinders.

On the street, you be numb, deaf, nearly blind, clumsy beyond belief, and your reactionary brain will be all you have. It will dredge up files that have already been downloaded (practice). If you have not downloaded and backed up those files, you will likely fail to successfully defend yourself. You may even injure or cause death to an uninvolved bystander.

Some trainers include shooting up to 15 yards from the target. I do not agree with this. State requirements are three and seven yards, and "a distance to be determined by the Instructor". If you shoot an attacker from 50 feet, you will likely go to trial! Also, a very small carry arm is difficult at best to shoot well at those ranges. I never suggest shooting at that range, as under stress you are likely to miss the target, and you are responsible for every bullet you fire.

(EDIT Oops! those requirements are for the Armed Guard shooting qual. Handgun carry permit is "12 shots at 3 yards, 12 shots at seven, 12 shots at fifteen yards, and the other 14 at a range between two and twenty-five yards, to be determined by the instructor." ) The older I get, the more i forget! LOL

As far as type of firearm, state guidelines suggest that the firearm MUST be of quality manufacture and free from operational defects. In plain terms, the firearm must be reliable and well made. Repeated stoppages or malfunction is cause to have it removed from the line. Also, if, IN THE OPINION OF THE INSTRUCTOR, the firearm is unsafe, it shall not be used.

The State of Tn shall not establish restrictions on the type, make, model or caliber of firearm used by the student. The guidelines DO give schools the right to do so. Obviously, there are unsuitable arms that are dependable, if not effective. I would discuss this in class and let the student make his/her own decision.

Most schools ban very small firearms in ineffective calibers that are unlikely to be accurate at anything past "spitting distance". Derringers, 25 autos, tiny 22 cal. revolvers come to mind. Remember that you can qualify with a suitable firearm, and if you want a small "pocket rocket" as a back up, you may carry more than one firearm.

Obviously, you must go to the class and pass it, which is easy. If you study a little beforehand, and practice with your firearm, you will be ahead of most folks. There is a huge difference between being ALLOWED to carry a firearm and being QUALIFIED.

I always recommend buying snap caps and performing stoppage reduction drills for autos. (clearing jams of all types)

Please note I have not solicited your business. The advice I give is honest and not biased and is based on years of experience on both ends of training.

http://www.tennessee.gov/safety/handgun/school.htm

http://www.searchlaw.com/tennesseelaw.htm

http://www.legallyarmed.com/index1.html

[Beretta Racer]

Frank, if you are going to trash someone for your own personal gain, you should disclose the fact that you are a competitor up front.

Is Buford's class the best? Maybe not, but I sat in on one of his classes and found him to be a pretty good instructor. Women seem to prefer him because he put their fears of the unknown to rest. Does he trash Glocks? Yup, I think they are crap too.

I have heard some not so kind things about ASP as well, but thats another subject for another day.

[Marswolf]

Actually, this topic has some very useful information.

I don't know Buford from Shinola but while he's maybe right about some stuff...it sounds like he is a bit off the deep end on objectively drawing conclusions about all handguns.

One thing I immediately notice is that his web page seems to be a screaming sales tool with more crap than substance. I see that on a lot of trainers' pages. I don't want to take classes in saving my life from a salesman. I want someone who is quietly well qualified, not P. T. Barnum. A big "look how great I am" page will probably just convince me how un-great they really are. The best trainers, in the sense of both teaching and knowing their stuff, are quiet but focused individuals. If you are really good, people will find out about it.

[creeky]

I

Of course, I do teach the classes for ASP in Joelton. Therefore, I am Buford's competitor.

Uh... I thought he did.

[Beretta Racer]

Uh... I thought he did.

Uh.... After he did the trashing.

"I don't know Buford from Shinola but while he's maybe right about some stuff...it sounds like he is a bit off the deep end on objectively drawing conclusions about all handguns."

Mars, He has his reasons for the types of firearms he likes and recommends. He also spells these reasons out in his classes.

[The Rabbi]

I took my Carry Permit class from Buford, and took the Armed Security Guard class at the same time.

It was two days of Buford cursing and swearing, telling us how great a cop he was, with plenty of bashing any guns besides Beretta 92's and Ruger SP101's, and very, very little information about the law or how to use a handgun.

Then we went to the range. We had to drive from Nashville, out to Smyrna, to use the National Guard range. I took my class in January, and let me tell you, standing out there for 4 hours was less than enjoyable. Not only that, but Buford requires his students to shoot using the most assinine retention technique in the world. You have to turn your body 90 degrees from the target, and shoot with your gun held next to your non-dominant shoulder. (If I'm that close to a threat that I have to worry about them taking my gun, I'm firing from the hip, as soon as I can clear leather. At that range, it's highly unlikely I'll miss.)

Of course, that didn't apply to everyone. I watched him certify an elderly lady (probably in excess of 70) as an armed security guard, who couldn't even hold her own gun up. Instead of Buford's normal grip, she stood facing the target, with her elbows at her side, her Model 19 in front of her. An RSO stood behind her, supporting her forearms with his hands, as she sllllooowwwwwllllyyy cocked her revolver and fired each round single action. He certified that woman to carry a gun professionally, guarding somone's business, in this post-9/11 world. Some other security guard was going to being relying on her to be their partner, backing them up, if need be, and she couldn't even hold up her gun.

If you bring a Glock, be prepared for belittlement about your gun being used by police agencies simply because it's used by the lowest bidder.

There are many other classes in the Nashville area that are better, cheaper, use an indoor range, and are run much, much more professionally.

Of course, I do teach the classes for ASP in Joelton. Therefore, I am Buford's competitor. However, even if I weren't, I wouldn't, in good conscience, recommend his classes to anyone. Even if you don't come see us in Joelton, please go elsewhere. There are too many other choices to waste your time and money with Buford.

My personal and professional recommendations would be, in order of preference:

1) ASP in Joelton (of course)

2) Guns and Leather in Greenbriar

3) On Target in Murfreesboro

4) Austin's Firearms School in Oak Ridge (Phantom6 - only reason he's 4, as opposed to 2 is distance from Nashville)

5) The Range

...

100) Gun ****ty (er, I mean City, sorry 'bout that) on Murfreesboro Road

...

1,000,000,001) Buford Tune @ APPS

That pretty well accords with everything (and I mean everything) I have ever heard about his classes and with my own (mercifully) brief experience meeting him.

I would add to the list Eddie Barnes' classes out in Brush Creek. I have sent numerous people there, all of them came back with great reviews. He also has the lowest price going. Only downside is the 45 minute drive to Brush Creek but well worth it, imo.

And no, I don't teach this class. I thought about it but 18 months of giving out cards to people interested and seeing who was likely to come persuaded me I didnt want to be around them with guns.

[BimmerFreak]

It looks like the OP is from Tullahoma.

If so, I would like to recommend Brian Rutledge http://www.southernshotandsteel.com/ as a quality trainer that much closer to your home.

[creeky]

Uh.... After he did the trashing.

I apologize "BerettaRacer". I didn't see an "edit" tag.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Some trainers include shooting up to 15 yards from the target. I do not agree with this. State requirements are three and seven yards, and "a distance to be determined by the Instructor". If you shoot an attacker from 50 feet, you will likely go to trial! Also, a very small carry arm is difficult at best to shoot well at those ranges. I never suggest shooting at that range, as under stress you are likely to miss the target, and you are responsible for every bullet you fire.

Only those trainers that want to administer a course of fire that is in accordance with State requirements shoot at 15 yards.

Shooting Coach, if you are a State Certified HCP Instructor and are not shooting at 15 yards, I suggest that you make some adjustments (actually, I don't, the State does).

Respectfully

[Marswolf]

As I recall, it's:

1. 12 rds at 3 yds.

2. 12 rds at 7 yds.

3. 12 rds at 15 yds

4. 12 rds at any distance from 2-25 yds.(Instructor's choice)

[Guest Todd@CIS]

As I recall, it's:

1. 12 rds at 3 yds.

2. 12 rds at 7 yds.

3. 12 rds at 15 yds

4. 12 rds at any distance from 2-25 yds.(Instructor's choice)

Exactly right.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

I apologize "BerettaRacer". I didn't see an "edit" tag.

That's because there isn't one, nor will there be one.

I divulged my competitive relationship with Buford within my post. The position of it relative to the beginning of my post isn't important. It's there, and that's what's important.

If somebody is a Buford fanboi, that's cool. That's their privilege. But, I'm not a fan. I don't like the fact that the majority of the information coming from him is one of three things:

1) Buford was a great cop

2) Glocks are crap, buy an SP101

3) "How to curse like a sailor 101"

Now, was he a great cop? I don't know, but I've heard otherwise from his former peers. Either way, the class isn't about his heroic deeds.

Are Glocks crap? Should everyone buy an SP101? I'm no Glock fanboi, that's for sure. I've shot plenty of them, but they don't feel right in my hand. Therefore, I've never owned one of my own. I did borrow one from my former father-in-law for a couple years (Model 22), but gave it back because I didn't care for it. I do plan to break down and buy a 19 one of these days. Are SP101's for everybody? No, not by any means. They're big and heavy. There is no gun that's 'right' for everybody.

Does cursing offend me? Anyone who's spent more than a few minutes with me, outside of class, would know the answer to that. I graduated from the U.S. Army Infantry Training Center and School. Grunts can curse with a skill that'd make a Bangkok madam blush. But, there's no place for it in a classroom environment such as the Carry Permit class. There are people there who don't want to hear it. Somebody's grandmother might be sitting there. Or, it could be someone who's thinking of sending his wife / mother / grandmother to the class. Is the world a harsh place? Yes, otherwise we wouldn't need to carry a gun. But, harsh and offensive don't always need to be adjoined.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

I have heard some not so kind things about ASP as well, but thats another subject for another day.

If you have some criticism about ASP, please, feel free to enumerate those criticisms. I am not afraid to hear that I am doing something that needs improvement. If you ask anyone who's taken my class, you'll find out that one of the first things I tell every student is that I don't know everything, and I'm always receptive to learning.

Now, do I know that there are some areas in which ASP could improve? Sure, I think there are. However, I am not the boss, and there are some things I don't have the power to change. Trust me, I have suggested some changes. The boss has listened. He's allowed me some leeway to do as I desire. But, in other cases, after he's listened to me, he's spelled out the reason he does it the way he does, and we've left things the way they are.

I know that the Department of Safety doesn't have any issues with how we teach. Is that the important thing? No. The important thing is whether or not my students get the information they need to begin safely carrying a handgun. I feel I give them the best information I can, given the time constraint and the fact that I have to teach to the lowest-common denominator. I could teach the class in a high-speed, low-drag manner, but most of the students would be left in the dust, bewildered. Could we spend more time on the basic fundamentals of pistol marksmanship? Sure, but the class is a basic safety class. It is not designed to teach everyone to shoot like Jerry Mikulek.

So, please, if you have something to say about me as an instructor, please do so. Keep in mind, though, that like I said, I am not the owner of ASP, nor am I in a position to set policy. I am merely an instructor there.

[Marswolf]

Well, next time I get to Nashville, I'll have to go by and meet Buford.

It does seem that with the depth of feeling about the gentleman, perhaps that isn't the right place to have the TFA meetings. (Hint - maybe a restaurant is?)

Cursing certainly doesn't bother me, but there are appropriate places for it and inappropriate places for it. In a business classroom is probably not a good place. I would be offended by it - not because of the cursing but because using that language in that setting would be such a stupid business practice. Stupidity offends me.

But if I'm teaching you something on a range, you will probably hear me using a few expletives. Then again, you won't be paying for the training. You are free to leave.

As far as the guns, Glocks aren't crap but they have to be used in the proper structured environment. Buford is undoubtedly correct that their pricing has a lot to do with their use by law enforcement agencies. Then again, so does Glock's reliability and accuracy. I think there are far better choices, but you all know that.

I can't get excited about the Ruger SP101. It's OK, but not what I would recommend for most people.

[Beretta Racer]

Touchy today aren't we Frank?

Cussing does not bother me in the least. As a vet and having been in a few tight spots in my travels, it rolls off my tongue a little to freely sometimes.

I do find your criticism of Buford to be a bit full of it too. Does he talk too much? Uh yeah. Loves Beretta and Ruger? Yup. He recommends what works and he's not attempting to or pretending to be an "operator" like some instructors.

I have recommended many folks to him and none have come back and said anything negative.

[Guest triggertime]

It should be noted that the reason that Buford Tune is anti semi-auto is

because almost all semi-autos malfunction when they're shot from that

assinine double handed bladed retention position that he teaches.

Instead of degrading the viability of semi-autos, he should stop teaching that

shooting technique. Unfortunately, that never occured to him. So therefor,

semi-autos are bad, so sayeth the Buford.

Don't take a class at APPS, if you can help it. There are better more knowledgable

instructors out there.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Touchy today aren't we Frank?

Cussing does not bother me in the least. As a vet and having been in a few tight spots in my travels, it rolls off my tongue a little to freely sometimes.

I do find your criticism of Buford to be a bit full of it too. Does he talk too much? Uh yeah. Loves Beretta and Ruger? Yup. He recommends what works and he's not attempting to or pretending to be an "operator" like some instructors.

I have recommended many folks to him and none have come back and said anything negative.

Actually, I'm not the least bit touchy.

Just because it doesn't bother you or I doesn't mean it isn't going to bother others. My parents for example. My dad is a Vietnam vet, having spent a little over 2 1/2 years vacationing in Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia. Back in the day, he could swear with the best of them. Now, though, he doesn't, and would be turned off by it. Oh, and he's also a 20 year cop. My mom wouldn't sit in Buford's class for more than 15 minutes. She doesn't want to hear that kind of cursing, either.

These folks to whom you've recommended Buford, have they ever been professional instructors, or been taught by anyone else? Now, I haven't been to GunSite, Thunder Ranch, etc. But, I have been exposed to plenty of instructors during college and especially the Army. Many of my Army instructors used profanity during their classes. The good ones used it rarely, and only to stress a particularly important part, or to get something through my thick head. Those who had to use it in every sentence didn't impress me. My dad is a combat vet and a LEO. He's the one who first taught me how to shoot. Did he do a good job? Well, I could hit a target, so I suppose it was ok. But, once I was exposed to other teachers, I realized how little my dad actually knew.

[Guest tadams]

Thanks to all the response, folks!

FWIW, I'm not necessarily entirely new to the world of shooting, itself. I've mostly been accustomed to long guns, but have plinked a little and "good ole boy" shot on private land with various handguns. Although it's been a long while, I had some good instruction by some good teachers while in Boy Sprouts.

From that, I have also developed a feel for what stance works best for me and, just like riding a bicycle, my muscles have a memory to return to that stance for accuracy and comfort. I was COMPLETELY unaware of Buford's "one stance fits all" position. I'm, in fact, eventually wanting to make other "uncomfortable" stances part of my repertoire, but for the purposes we're discussing, the 90degree twist seems a bit silly.

I was also prepared to listen to some harsh opinions. A person with a website such as his will undoubtedly have a strong personality; one of those that people either like or dislike and not many in-betweens. I can also totally look beyond cussing, as I do it myself. But it is situational. As stated earlier I, too, am offended by stupidity. There's no place for it in the business world.

Those two factors combined (but primarily the first) are leading me to spend my money elsewhere.

Joe, I have taken your advise and called Brian. He's gonna try to set up a class this Saturday, the 1st for me.

If any other future permit holders are reading this thread and you live around the area, give Brian a call and join in, so that he can fill the class! (931) 993-6988

Meets in Fayetteville at 9am, Dec. 1st

Thanks for the opinions, ya'll. A little common sense does, indeed, go a long way.

[Guest Shooting Coach]

I did not feel that Frank was trying to belittle anyone for monetary gain. He likely did not embellish the experience he had in the APPS class, unfortunately. There are entirely too many "F" words and "MF" words in the class, and depreciating comments about women and race. Some folks are their own worst enemy.

Thanks for the reminder about the course of fire. I mixed up the Armed Guard course of fire, and added a notation on my original post. I train multiple disciplines, and have to get out my cheat sheet for some classes. It really bites getting old, but it beats the alternative! LOL