questions from new girl

[Rightwinger]

Sarah,

We have an old saying in the logistics world (probably just our little part of the logistics world)

"That's a little NOT good"

Negligent discharge is serious stuff. You do need to get some time one on one with a certified instructor and keep practicing with the smaller calibers like .22 and .25.

Good luck

[Im Neero]

Yea, I mentioned earlier that the SAO is not a gun for novices, and the 1911 falls into that category. What you experienced today is the drawback of that style, it's trigger is very light and that can lead to a "negligent discharge." I would stay away from ANYTHING in .4 caliber and .357 magnum; they will kick worse than the .45.

22 guns are great for beginners to learn on, but are not powerful enough to make a good self defense round, that is why Caynracer is so pro-9mm; it is powerful enough for self defense but not so powerful that it is too much for a novice to handle. I agree with him on that point, .38 special is in a similar category.

As to why bullets that look the same are more and less powerful it has to do with how much powder is in them. More powerful rounds have more powder and less powerful ones have less powder. Guns are built to handle the rounds that they are designed for and no others (in most cases), doing otherwise can result in a blown up gun.

I have refrained from recommending a handgun up until this point because, as the others have said, the best idea is to get training and try a lot of pistols. Based on everything that you have said though, I do suggest that you check into the Smith&Wesson M&P in 9mm. It comes with changeable grips so you can make it fit your hand and should be fairly easy for you to handle.

[Mike.357]

I'll chime in here.

first off you do not need to get a .357magnum or .40S&W for protection.

There was no real reason for you to have shot a .45.

What gun shop did you go to? Makes me question their credibility to have you shoot that .45 I blame the gunshop for your negligent discharge. If I read correclty you shot into the ground. The ground is generally a safe place to have the gun pointed in case a negligent discharge happens. They were fools for putting that gun in your hand without ample training.

for self defense you are not getting a lot of protection from a .22. Read :a waste of your money for the purpose you want it for.

Shooting a firearm is not meant to be a comfortable thing for everyone. You will need to get used to the noise and recoil. Remember you are interested in a firearm for protection. Fun is a big reason a lot of us here shoot. Fun does not have to be your reason.

A handgun for self defense boils down to shot placement more than ballistics.

With a .357magnum you can shoot .38 specials. .38's will have less noise and recoil. The .38 round properly placed will stop a bad guy, every bit as much as a larger, noiser, larger recoiling round will.

The 9mm or the .38 special in my humble opinion is what you should be looking at. There is a multitude of these calibers available from manufacturers.

Perceived recoil and noise from the 9mm and .38 special is generally very acceptable when speaking of firearms.

Smith and Wesson makes very good lightweight revolvers that will shoot .38 specials.

There are tons of 9mm auto loading handguns available as well.

Speak with the people at your class Saturday. you are taking that class??? The teachers there will give you valuable input and be able to explain things very well for you.

Good Luck.

[deerslayer]

a little clarification...

A heavier gun, in general, will not "kick" as hard as a lighter one (all other things being equal). A heavier .38 will kick less than a lighter .38. True, the .45 was a heavier gun, but it was also a different caliber using different, more powerful ammo. Just because the .45 may have beem heavier than the 9mm does not mean the .45 would kick less. Sorry if I confused you earlier.

[Guest smturner99]

Yes - the negligent discharge was NOT good. It was very bad. It scared me even more than the first shot. It felt like the gun went off by itself. I know it didn't, I know I had to pull the trigger but I don't remember doing it or I wasn't trying to do it. It really just seemed like the gun went off by itself.

Yes, it was pointed at the ground, but it wasn't pointed at the target when I pulled the trigger. It was just in one hand because it jumped out of my other hand.

It just happened so fast - I don't know how to describe it.

I'm glad he was standing right behind me.

Yes - I'm going to ask many questions in class.

Yes - you are right, I'm NOT doing this for pleasure or enjoyment like you guys. That's why it made me think of the gym.

SAO - I forgot to ask about that - so the 1911 is SAO - I do NOT want that. I'm glad you reminded me about that. I'm still kind of excited from the day. SAO are very fast.

One thing I am very convinced of - I learned so much actually shooting a gun. I can read and read and it is nothing like doing it. I know that definitely size matters.

But I still don't quite see - if they are all the same size then why can't I put them in the same gun? I mean he took one out of each box and sat them on the counter next to each other - they looked the same size.

Mike 357 - you said you can shoot 357 and 38 in the same gun?

I really think he showed me

9mm

.357 SIG (red box) and

.40

But

IM Nero said I can blow up a gun - I do NOT want to do that.

I didn't know a gun could do that? That's scary.

I learned SO MUCH shooting. It is so different from what I thought it would be.

What do you mean "bullet placement"? You mean shoot them in the heart, right?

Why is the target thing have the circle drawn with the center in his stomach and not his chest? Is that where you shoot for?

[Im Neero]

"Shot placement" does mean shoot them in the heart when we use it.

You shouldn't have to worry about blowing up your gun, just only use the kind of ammunition that it is marked for i.e. 9mm in a 9mm gun, .357 sig in a .357 sig and so forth. While the rounds look similar there are slight differences in size and gunpowder that don't look like much to the naked eye but add up to a huge difference in pressure. Think about it like trying to use diesel in an unleaded engine, both of the fuels look the same but they're not and if you use one in an engine designed for the other, bad things happen.

Don't feel too bad about the negligent discharge. No one was hurt and it ensures that you will take gun safety seriously now that you know how one moment of not paying attention can result in a very loud bang.

Good luck in your course and be careful, if you keep showing interest like you are now you might actually end up being one of those people that likes to shoot like we are

[Guest Mugster]

Good job going to the range, I know its tough for a real beginner. You are on your way to becoming a shooter

Now you might understand why I recommended a .22 to start out on...most kids starting out start on a .22 rimfire rifle, and its a good place to start, imo.

On bullet placement: People say this to mean that as long as you have a decently powered handgun, its more important to make a good shot with a smaller round than a bad shot with a bigger round. In your case, you found that you could not handle a 1911 yet. So it is a bad handgun for you right now, although in the hands of a 1911 person, the .45acp round that it shoots is good self defense cartridge. For you, possibly a smaller, easier to use 9mm that you can shoot well is the better choice even though 9mm is less powerful.

In defensive shooting, most training has you aim or point to the center of mass of the target. The widest spot on the body, where ever that might be. Handguns are hard to shoot, and they are more like a last ditch life preserver even in the hands of an expert. Thats why the military mostly issues rifles, shotguns, machineguns, etc and and doesn't bother with handguns much. Handguns just basically suck and are very limited in range and power. That is one reason why the state will issue a permit to carry a handgun, but you can't carry a rifle or a shotgun off your property for self defense under any circumstances because they are so lethal and much easier to shoot accurately.

On caliber or type of ammo, there is a physical bullet diameter measured in inches or in millimeters. A .45 acp round is 45/100 of an inch in diameter. A 9mm round is of course 9mm wide or 355/1000 of an inch. A .357 magnum shoots a bullet that is 357/1000 of an inch wide. A .38 special also shoots a 357/1000 bullet diameter.

Since some bullet diameters match across 2 cartridges, you can sometimes use 2 calibers in the same gun. This is not always possible, but it is common to use .38 special in .357 magnum revolvers. It is also common in hunting revolvers to shoot .45acp and .45 long colt out of the same gun with some small modifications. Usually semi-automatic handguns are limited to one cartridge because their internal workings are more complex, unless you change several parts.

[Guest Mugster]

5 char

[Mark@Sea]

Hi Sarah,

Sounds as if you did not try a revolver. That gunstore clerk isn't your friend.

22's are the easiest to shoot - the very low recoil and comparitively low noise allow you to concentrate on the mechanics of sight alignment and operation of the pistol. Unfortunately, as noted, they aren't very useful for self defense.

If you get to the point where you would feel more comfortable meeting someone from this board, I live about an hour and a half north of you, have my own outdoor range, have a variety of pistols for you to try, and I am very married. I'm not looking to sell you anything, either. I have some (very dated) experience as an instructor, but can't provide you with any certifications.

[towerclimber37]

Nice Job Ms. Turner!

I agree with Mike.357, there was no reason for you to shoot a 1911.

- A 9mm pistol or .38 pistol are both excellent rounds/pistol calibers for you to use as a self defense round.

-my sister in law approaches marksmanship and firearms like you do..with the exception of her PINK m1a carbine (yes guys...that thing ain't right).

she shoots mainly to maintain her marksmanship skills. MY wife, on the other hand, shoots for enjoyment. You should have seen the stunned look on the guys' faces when we all were at the range, and she unlimbered the m1a rifle (its a large cal. rifle) and began to murder the paper targets downrange, she emptied a 20 round magazine and then said "here honey, would you load this magazine for me?" she had another magazine and wanted to shoot that one as well.

- its harder for you to do this on your own..more fun/less of a chore to do it with someone else...thats why we frequently hook up with each other and go to the range!

-if you want to look in wikipedia for 9mm try 9mm PISTOL. it will give you more information and less ballistics figures.

Mark, if she decides to come up, give Julie and I a call, we can bring over the gun box and let her try the 9mm's and such. besides...its an excuse to get out to the range and Julie will definitely come!

[DaveTN]

Rarely will I say this…. You didn’t have a negligent discharge; you had an accidental discharge. There was negligence but it was on the part of the clown that put that gun in your hands.

But you have already been offered help here from some folks that are professionals.

Good Luck.

[TGO David]

I would strongly encourage you to rent or borrow and shoot a .38 Special revolver of some sort at this point. I would also strongly encourage you to not give much consideration to the idea of carrying a .22, .25, .32 or even .380 for self defense.

Those calibers just are not sufficient for the job.

A .38 Special cartridge is essentially the same as a 9mm Parabellum. The 9mm is just made to be fed through an automatic handgun. You will find that while those two cartridges have a little "pop" to them, the recoil is much lighter than you will encounter with the other calibers that have been suggested to you thus far.

You do not need a .40 SW or a .357 Magnum no matter what anyone else says. Not at this point at least.

[The Rabbi]

I do not want a 1911. I was told the heavy guns were easier to shoot.

I thought that if I bought a heavy gun that I wouldn't have "recoil" but the 1911 was heavy and it was awful. I'm very glad I tried shooting guns first.

And the 1911 once again proves itself, showing why anything else is the choice of people looking for carry guns.....

[creeky]

Hello Sarah,

Just wanted to say keep at it. Trying different types of guns in different calibers really is the best way to find what is right for you. You'll know by the feel of pistol and the recoil what feels best for you.

I was lucky enough to have a few friends that have different pistols and calibers for my wife to try out. She has settled on a 9mm (but that is Her and not you.) after trying many and made the statement afterwards that the one she liked "felt" better in her hand than anything else she had shot.

You seem to be honestly looking for what is best for you and willing to learn and educate yourself to achieve that end. I have no doubt that you will end up with what is perfect for you and your needs.

[towerclimber37]

And the 1911 once again proves itself, showing why anything else is the choice of people looking for carry guns.....

Yes Rabbi, and thats just sad..its a good design.

*Is this better, tung?

[TGO David]

Yes Rabbi, young, neophyte girls and you don't carry 1911s', you carry wheelguns.. careful, your slip is showing.

Play nice.

With proper instruction and a little self-confidence, Sarah could easily carry and learn to enjoy shooting a 1911. As DaveTN pointed out, the only negligence here was on the part of the gunshop dweebus.

When I taught my 13 year old son to shoot the 1911, I taught him in baby steps:

• 1st step - Dry fire
  
• 2nd step - Live fire, one round in the chamber, safety on.
  
• 3rd step - Live fire, one in the chamber, one in the mag, safety on.
  
• 4th step - Live fire, one in the chamber, two in the mag, safety on.
  
• 5th step - Live fire, chamber empty, one in the mag, safety on.
  
• 6th step - Live fire, chamber empty, two in the mag, safety on.
  
• ... progressively more ammo in the mag, empty chamber, safety on.

This helped him acclimate to the function of the 1911 design and gave him confidence before exposing him to additional motor-functions like racking the slide to chamber a round. He did very well and never put an AD down range.

It's all about baby steps. You don't take a new shooter and turn them loose and expect good things to happen.

[Mike.357]

Sarah, first let me be clear on something. A revolver that is a .357magnum will fire a .38 special. A revolver that is a .38special will not handle a .357magnum.

The magnum casing (the brass part) is tooo long. Be clear on this. It works one way, not the other.

Do not blame yourself for the negligent discharge, that blame lies squarely on the

ass-hat that put it in your hand. Learn from it but not blame yourself.

Be sure to post about your experience with the class you are taking Saturday.

[Mark@Sea]

Gun store clerk. Sheesh.

If he'd covered the four rules, there wouldn't have been an ND. If he'd offered her pistols more suitable to a complete neophyte, there wouldn't have been an ND. If he'd properly supervised, there wouldn't have been an ND.

Three opportunities to show professionalism, but the countertop Col. Custer blew it.

Will she need a pistol for Saturdays' class?

[Mike.357]

Will she need a pistol for Saturdays' class?

Mark, if she takes that class where she said she was they have handguns of various calibers available for use by students. I am betting they will put a revolver in her hand or a .22 target pistol.

[Guest canynracer]

Hi Sarah,

First, congrats on the shooting!! sorry bout the fool that put the 1911 in your hand. I dont know why he did that other to show you what a big strong guy he is...he probably finished with something like "thats what I carry"

I am very pro 9mm because in my opinon, it is easy to control, and does the job you are seeking. Not to mention, most 9mm will give you at least 8-10 bullets. Mine holds 16 rounds. Which is good in case you do happen to miss a couple...high stress situations may cause a miss or two. But practice makes perfect!!

I agree with the rest of the board, you DO NOT need a 40 or 357....

Like I said, I carry a Smith and Wesson Sigma 9VE, I LOVE it!!

[TGO David]

First, congrats on the shooting!! sorry bout the fool that put the 1911 in your hand. I dont know why he did that other to show you what a big strong guy he is...he probably finished with something like "thats what I carry"

Well, that's what *I* carry...

Remember kids, a 9mm is just a .45 set on "Stun"

I kid, I kid.

[DaveTN]

Which is good in case you do happen to miss a couple

[deerslayer]

I would strongly encourage you to rent or borrow and shoot a .38 Special revolver of some sort at this point. I would also strongly encourage you to not give much consideration to the idea of carrying a .22, .25, .32 or even .380 for self defense.

Those calibers just are not sufficient for the job.

A .38 Special cartridge is essentially the same as a 9mm Parabellum. The 9mm is just made to be fed through an automatic handgun. You will find that while those two cartridges have a little "pop" to them, the recoil is much lighter than you will encounter with the other calibers that have been suggested to you thus far.

You do not need a .40 SW or a .357 Magnum no matter what anyone else says. Not at this point at least.

+1

As new to shooting as you are, a .38 revolver is definitely the way to go.

[TGO David]

Which is good in case you do happen to miss a couple

Pshhh... you were a cop, so I'm not even going to talk about how well some of the boys in blue shoot.

Oh, ok. I lied. Have you seen how badly some of those guys shoot?!?

[Mark@Sea]

Tungsten, there is something deeply, deeply disturbing about Boba Fett in a Santa cap.

That being said, I agree she should try a 38 revolver, cops as a whole are lousy shots, and a 1911 makes a great carry gun - even for those of us who aren't trying to show how manly we are.