Your qualifying handgun?

[Guest canynracer]

We are convicing our peers...yes, the law is a factor (obviously) but it is also judgment...as we debate here for the "what ifs" imagine the debate for the real thing in a jury room...and some may think "he didnt have control"

if you did kill an innocent, say its with a brand new gun, you have NEVER shot...you can BET that will come up...paperwork or qualifications or not...it will come up.

but if you took that new gun to the range, and they had something that said you were "proficient" it just removes the doubt.

Just because I have a license to drive a big a$$$ motorhome, or moving truck, doesnt mean that if I kill someone, they wont ask about my driving experience with a big ol thing like that.

[DaveTN]

what would the basis of law be here? TN does not require you do this so there is no standard for having to do it.

We are talking civil here; not criminal. If an innocent person is dead there was no “accidentâ€. A jury will have hours or days to decide what other action you could have taken. And they will come up with many; none of which will include shooting an innocent person. As pro “deadly force†as this forum is you are going to 80% of the people wanting to give speeches about what you did wrong and how with all their knowledge and training the outcome would have been much different. So what do you think your chances would be with a jury?

The obvious person to blame here is a dirt bag that has no money. The jury will want to give the innocent person or their family a payday. That is going to come from you and the really “deep pockets†if you happened to be standing in a business when the shooting occurred.

The fact that you are not arrested does not necessarily let you off the hook. I doubt that being destroyed financially would be much fun.

I’m not saying that I believe this “add a gun class†will help you any; I am only saying that in “good shoots†innocent people don’t get shot.

[Mike.357]

I’m not saying that I believe this “add a gun class” will help you any; I am only saying that in “good shoots” innocent people don’t get shot.

agree 100%

Something I just thought of. Dave we have a lot of common gound on a lot of subjects.

Lets throw a Virginia Tech into the mix. what if you are "helping the situation", you take out the killer but a bullet passes through and hits an innocent. what is your take on what might happen? certainly you have stopped a situation from becoming potentially worse but also you have added to the body count.

That is going to come from you and the really “deep pockets” if you happened to be standing in a business when the shooting occurred

Any of us as homeowners qualify for the deep pocket thing.

Canyn what about taking this class and then becoming proficient in shooting someone?

I am not talking about a bystander but rather the bad guy. What will the DA say about you having taken a class making you more proficient with this 9mm?

I think this is a great topic and we are are learning a lot from this discussion.

and if no one else has ever said it, I love this forum!

[Cruel Hand Luke]

And that is why some of us harp so much on that dirty 8 letter word P-R-A-C-T-I-C-E.

The better your skill is with your firearm the less likely you are to accidentally shoot the wrong person.And how do we improve that skill? Practice.

They say amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong. If we are going to go about armed we really owe it to ourselves AND to society at large to be as professional as we can. I'm not suggesting everyone has the time to practice enough to be an IPSC or IDPA Master level shooter. But there is a long way between that level of skill and what I consistently see on ranges from people who go about armed. A little practice never hurt anyone. And it may save not only YOUR life but that of innocent bystanders.

I know it is mundane. I know it makes us feel bad about ourselves sometimes. I know pushing our limits is not an immediate gratification kind of thing, and it feels better to sit at home and talk about our "safe queens"on the internet, but there is only one way to be a better shooter. And it is NOT to buy a better gun.

I have been taken to task here in the past for proposing that people hold themselves to a higher standard of gunhandling and marksmanship if they plan to go about armed on the street. THIS is why. If you accidentally shoot a bystander your life is going to be VERY stressful for a long time. How do we not shoot bystanders? Hold ourselves to a higher standard of marksmanship and gunhandling. The life (and the money )you save may be not only your own but those of another.

DISCLAIMER: If anyone reading was offended or took my characterizations of certain people I have seen 1st hand in 8 years as an instructor to be a personal attack I suggest that they feel that way because they deep down relate to those I was talking about.

If you DO NOT fit that category then do not get upset. If you DO fit that category do not get upset, just get up and go seek competent instruction or at the very least buy some books and go practice on your own. Go shoot a match. Do some dry work at home. Buy an airsoft pistol and shoot some IDPA targets in the garage. All of these things help.

[Mike.357]

And it may save not only YOUR life but that of innocent bystanders.

this definitely falls under Col Cooper's four rules, particularly knowing what your target is and what is beyond it.

[DaveTN]

Lets throw a Virginia Tech into the mix. what if you are "helping the situation", you take out the killer but a bullet passes through and hits an innocent. what is your take on what might happen? certainly you have stopped a situation from becoming potentially worse but also you have added to the body count.

VT was an “active shooterâ€. Due to the recent school shootings most Police departments have changed their tactics from “securing the scene†to the first responders engaging the shooter immediately with deadly force. Every case will be different. If someone had engaged Cho in the hallway before he had his big body count and killed Cho and an innocent student, the courtroom scene would not be the same as if someone shot him after his body count and at the same time killed an innocent student.

Any of us as homeowners qualify for the deep pocket thing.

Maybe you do, but I certainly am not in the same league as a national gas chain or retail store. Your home or your homeowners policy is going to pale in comparison to what they will be asking for in a wrongful death from your decision to engage a bad guy.

Canyn what about taking this class and then becoming proficient in shooting someone?

I am not talking about a bystander but rather the bad guy. What will the DA say about you having taken a class making you more proficient with this 9mm?

Referring to the DA you are back in the criminal court. If you shot the bad guy the only question will be if you were justified or not. The DA will not care how you were trained.

Now if you are being charged criminally with reckless conduct your training will be called into question.

[Mike.357]

Maybe you do, but I certainly am not in the same league as a national gas chain or retail store.

certainly we as homeowners are not in the same league as chain stores. But compared to many we are the wealthy. I must have misread your original intention. My house is a dump ,lol. Worth more as land than as a home. not in the same league as a Haslem.

If you shot the bad guy the only question will be if you were justified or not.

not necassarily. I know about the Castle Laws. but what about civil liability? Certainly taking a class with your (insert gun name here) will make you bait for the DA. Does a criminal charge really make a difference?

[DaveTN]

not necassarily. I know about the Castle Laws. but what about civil liability? Certainly taking a class with your (insert gun name here) will make you bait for the DA. Does a criminal charge really make a difference?

You are bouncing around here Mike, and I’m not sure I can keep up.

DA’s deal with criminal cases. Civil liability is civil court. Different sets of rules.

I’m lost on where you are getting this “Bait for the DAâ€. You asked about if you only shot the bad guy. The DA could give a rolling rip down a razor blade what gun you used, what training you had, or what ammo you used if you are justified in using deadly force.

A lawyer (not the DA) will bring all these things into question if you shoot an innocent. Whether you were legally justified in shooting or not.

[Guest nitrous_mike]

Some people like to cover their butt as much as they can and can you honestly blame them with the way these wonderful court systems are ? The same range also offers tactical classes, which they also do not push but offer. I chose to take some of their classes and will go back to take the rest of them when I can. I wanted to simply to have something saying hey maybe I am not just a typical nut job who thinks its cool to open carry all of the time, but I have put forth the effort to actually try and learn how to be safer and not have to use deadly force unless I have to. To me its the same as getting certified on different pieces of equipment and other jobs that I do every day. If I happen to screw up something on one of these 5+ million dollar machine I can at least say I have had schooling on this and do have " experts "saying that I have a damn good idea of whats supposed to be going on.

I know I am not like everyone else but to me thats what I see the whole add a gun deal being. IMO if you do not think you can qualify with your carry gun then you should be carrying that gun if you can not place shots with it every time.

[Marswolf]

The problem I see with this "qualification" of another handgun is that it is a joke. Getting a passing score to the level required to get a carry permit is so easy that it is unusual to have someone fail to qualify who has never shot a handgun prior to the class.

Now, if someone want to take a real shooting class to fine tune their shooting skills, I'd go for that. But this add a gun thing to show you are good enough to get a permit with another gun is just a scam.

Do you think any competent civil lawyer is going to let you get away with claiming that this sham qualification shows that you really know how to use that particular handgun?

[Guest canynracer]

Canyn what about taking this class and then becoming proficient in shooting someone?

I am not talking about a bystander but rather the bad guy. What will the DA say about you having taken a class making you more proficient with this 9mm?

I think this is a great topic and we are are learning a lot from this discussion.

and if no one else has ever said it, I love this forum!

I agree it is a good topic...

Just to clarify...it is not a "class" you show up for the shooting part only, they fit you in with people that are in for the full 8hr class.

I think that if you did in fact shoot a BG, and no innocents, there is no difference in that 9mm, compared to the one that I qualified to begin with...

the fact that there were no innocents hurt is a good thing, it means I used the force necessary, with a gun that I proved I can control to eliminate the threat.

[Guest canynracer]

The problem I see with this "qualification" of another handgun is that it is a joke. Getting a passing score to the level required to get a carry permit is so easy that it is unusual to have someone fail to qualify who has never shot a handgun prior to the class.

same could be said about the gun you used for the original.

Now, if someone want to take a real shooting class to fine tune their shooting skills, I'd go for that. But this add a gun thing to show you are good enough to get a permit with another gun is just a scam.

this goes back to the original test as well...is one an "expert" because they "passed" this 8hr class with no prior training? There were people in the class I was in that NEVER shot a gun, and now they want to carry one...the BARLEY made it, but made it none the less. If they hit a bystander in civil court, their "qualifying score" may come into play

Do you think any competent civil lawyer is going to let you get away with claiming that this sham qualification shows that you really know how to use that particular handgun?

Once again, it is merely a paper that states that you are just a good of shot with this one, as you were with the gun you originally "qualified" with.

The point of it all is to remove the obvious doubt that the jury WILL have if the subject comes up.

If a good civil lawyer brings up the fact that you couldnt control the gun, and that is why innocents were hurt, a BETTER defense lawyer can ease the jury by showing that there is no difference in control the gun you used, than the gun you got your permit with.

"He didnt know how to use the gun, its not the one he got his permit with"

"Yes he did, here is proof that the gun itself is not the factor, he is just as proficient according to TN carry permit standards"

[DaveTN]

If a good civil lawyer brings up the fact that you couldnt control the gun, and that is why innocents were hurt, a BETTER defense lawyer can ease the jury by showing that there is no difference in control the gun you used, than the gun you got your permit with.

"He didnt know how to use the gun, its not the one he got his permit with"

"Yes he did, here is proof that the gun itself is not the factor, he is just as proficient according to TN carry permit standards"

And the civil lawyer will counter that with Prima fascia. If you shot an innocent; you were not in control of the weapon or the situation. Unless of course you shot through the bad guy.

[Mike.357]

You are bouncing around here Mike, and I’m not sure I can keep up.

Sorry, I was getting on a roll and no telling where it might have headed off to:doh:

I believe I also mispoke when I said DA instead of attorny when referring to a civil action.

what gun you used, what training you had,

right, I totally agree

Nitrous you talk about tactical classes, I see that more as training where as the thing about learning to shoot a new gun is a different story. Really any training is a good thing. But I do not see paying to "learn" to shoot a new gun as training, well it is training but an individual could accomplish the same result just by spending time on the range as opposed to spending money for a new weapon qualification class.

I think we all agree that they are in business to turn a profit and that is all they are trying to do here.

mars wrote

Do you think any competent civil lawyer is going to let you get away with claiming that this sham qualification shows that you really know how to use that particular handgun?

Totally agree, if anything I believe they will turn it against you.

Canyn writes

with a gun that I proved I can control to eliminate the threat

If it is deemed a clean shoot you will have proved that, no qualification necessary.

If they hit a bystander in civil court, their "qualifying score" may come into play

I disagree. In my HCP class I took my target home, I am not sure there is a recorded score anywhere. It was scored as pass / fail only as far as what the instructor recorded.

and BTW everyone Happy Thanksgiving!

[Guest nitrous_mike]

I see that more as training where as the thing about learning to shoot a new gun is a different story. Really any training is a good thing. But I do not see paying to "learn" to shoot a new gun as training, well it is training but an individual could accomplish the same result just by spending time on the range as opposed to spending money for a new weapon qualification class.

The biggest thing is you have a piece of paper that "experts" have stated that you meet the level that is required by the state. I used my XD SC 40 to take the classes and that is what I carry every day.

I shoot every weekend, I have several guns, I am not going to go and do the add a gun with every one, or any of them for that matter. I know I am not some dead eye 3" grouping on every clip that I shoot threw my guns, but I also know that I am probably more proficient then at least one other person out there who just has a gun and never shoots it. You just have to remember that with out some sort proof other then your word how can you prove that you do shoot often and you are proficient with your guns.

But for the fact that someone wants to call it a scam is total BS, thats almost like someone saying that if you donate money to a charity or this site you have fallen to a scam. In the end you hope your money is actually going to something that is worth while and if nothing else it is just a piece of mind knowing that you have actually tried. I am not trying to get into a pissing match but it is a service that someone wants to offer and people feel as if they need to, then good I am glad they want to better their self. I mean honestly even at 25 bux that is cheap "insurance" that MAY help you if you ever do have to answer for a shooting, I am sure you are like me and you throw away more money then that on less.

[Guest canynracer]

And the civil lawyer will counter that with Prima fascia. If you shot an innocent; you were not in control of the weapon or the situation. Unless of course you shot through the bad guy.

this is true. but then this would also go with the circumstances of the situation. point is, you rule out the "he didnt know the gun, or never shot the gun" argument. the jury, which is who you are REALLY trying to impress, is less likely to think you are carrying something outside your means, and will let the circumstance (not the gun) come into play. Due diligence to show you have tried your best to take the steps will go a long way with a jury of your peers.

once again, I dont have the add a gun..i dont intend on doing it, I just understand why some people would think they want this, I dont think it is a "scam" as much as it is just another thing the range offers.

[Guest canynracer]

I think you hold more weight with the jury by doing whatever is in your means to show that you are carrying a gun in a responsible manner, and not one of the BGs you just shot.

[DaveTN]

I think what the range is offering is a good idea. It gives someone an opportunity to maybe get some help or tips on a gun they may not be real familiar with. Training is always a good thing.

But I’m a realist. I just think that believing that this class will help you in court is laughable.

[Guest canynracer]

I disagree. In my HCP class I took my target home, I am not sure there is a recorded score anywhere. It was scored as pass / fail only as far as what the instructor recorded.

and BTW everyone Happy Thanksgiving!

I took mine home too...but, I also know that the instructor wrote down our scores for both the shooting and the written.

[Guest canynracer]

I think what the range is offering is a good idea. It gives someone an opportunity to maybe get some help or tips on a gun they may not be real familiar with. Training is always a good thing.

But I’m a realist. I just think that believing that this class will help you in court is laughable.

being a "realist" I would think you would know that ANYTHING you can bring to persuade a jury of your peers is certainly not "laughable" in any case, not just a shooting case...any case.

again. its not a "class"...its shooting the gun in front of a Licened TN handgun carry permit instructor and having that same instructor state by signature that you can "qualify" by TN standards to shoot the gun.

there are states that ONLY allow you to carry the gun you qualify with. Hell, even COPS have to qualify with their duty guns, they want to carry a different gun on duty, they have to qualify with it...hmmm, wonder why that is...

[Mike.357]

Out of curiosity I went and dug out my copy of the HCP certification.

It made no mention of any score, written test or shooting test but it did note what handgun I took the class with.

I wonder why they note the particular gun if TN law has no preference over what handgun you carry.

Interesting.

[Guest canynracer]

your cert wont have score...but I know my instructor had our names on a log sheet, and our scores.

and yes, your gun make, model and caliber are on it

[DaveTN]

I wonder why they note the particular gun if TN law has no preference over what handgun you carry.

Money. So that when they pass a law that you have to qualify with each weapon you decide to carry; there will be a record.

[cadillacdude1975]

it does not matter what you carry, as long as you have a permit to do so. i qualified with a Glock 36 .45 6 shot but i carry a Glock 33 Sig .357 10+1

they just put what you used on your sertificate when you pass the gun safety class.

[Marswolf]

Didn't Tennessee originally give you a permit to carry only the gun you qualified with (and only concealed)? That was back when you had to either be bonded or have insurance to pack. Can't remember which it was.

I'll let you guys argue the courtroom contingencies. It sounds like opinions are pretty much split down the middle whether the "qualification" would be a plus or minus in a civil suit.

But as far as becoming familiar with another handgun and showing you are competent with it, the carry permit qualifying standards are so lax as to be next to worthless.