Law or Policy or Both?

[jpowelle5]

Here is the scenario:

The local "whatever store" has the building posted "no firearms" or "no carrying of firearms" or whatever...

An individual has a handgun carry permit. He/she is legally allowed to carry and for this scenario they are carrying concealed.

The enter the local whatever store - Doesn't matter to me if they noticed the sign or not.

While reaching for something on a higher shelf their shirt rises and their handgun is exposed. An employee notices and calls the local police department.

An officer shows up and the employee points the person carrying out to the officer.

Is the individual breaking the law or breaking the stores policy. Can/will they be arrested or will they just be asked to leave the premises.

**** There is a destinct difference between breaking the law and break a companies policy ****

So I guess my question is: in breaking a company policy are you in turn breaking the law?

I recently took the handgun carry class and this was a little gray. No obviously if I am carrying and I see the sign that says "no firearms" or something to that, I am going to turn around and do buisness elsewhere or remove my handgun. I was just looking for clarification.

Thanks.

[Guest manofsteel]

I think it may depend on the leo. If he wants to be a d@#$. you will most likely go to jail. If he understands the law and is gun friendly mabey not. The I didnt see it mite work. You may lose your permit. If said place is not "properly " posted the judge could call you safe. It is a good question.Personaly I dont do business where im not wanted. I look on every door I enter. More than once I have went back to my truck and shoped elsewhere. It's my money I will spend it where I decide. I went to a place the other day sigh said "unload all firearms before entering". I got back in my truck. What good is it not loaded???? Just my two cents.

[jpowelle5]

I agree - I would rather drive to another store to spend my money. Being originally from Michigan and having my CCW there, the worst that could happen was they could ask you to leave and not return. Because it was a policy and not a violation of the law.

Jay

[Alpha7]

I would say for the moment you would go to jail but once it went to court and your attorney was able to show that it was not posted "properly" then the judge would more than likely dismiss the charges and I doubt you would lose your permit but if you did I am sure under the circumstances he would reinstate your permit.

[Guest Caveman]

I may be incorrect here (yes it happends from time to time) but I believe you cannot be arrested unless the "whatever" store associate asks you to leave and you refuse. It is different if you carry where you are not allowed to legally, like a resturant that serves alcohol for instance. At that point you are breaking the law. But entering a store and not noticing their sign is not an arrestable offense unless you refuse to leave after being caught, then you are trespassing. The LEO would ask you to leave after checking your HCP, but could not arrest you. If arresting you was the case then a place with a no smoking sign could have you arrested for lighting up in the store even if they never asked you to leave, or you could be arrested for taking a cell phone into a place where it is posted no cell phones. Same difference.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Caveman

[bvarnell]

I may be incorrect here (yes it happends from time to time) but I believe you cannot be arrested unless the "whatever" store associate asks you to leave and you refuse. It is different if you carry where you are not allowed to legally, like a resturant that serves alcohol for instance. At that point you are breaking the law. But entering a store and not noticing their sign is not an arrestable offense unless you refuse to leave after being caught, then you are trespassing. The LEO would ask you to leave after checking your HCP, but could not arrest you. If arresting you was the case then a place with a no smoking sign could have you arrested for lighting up in the store even if they never asked you to leave.

+1

As long as you leave when asked, you have broken no law.

[mikegideon]

I have read that if it's properly posted, you're breaking the law.

[Guest jackdm3]

I think a judge could easily rule that a bad sign constituted the "will of the proprietor" and simply say, "well, you know what he meant."

[Guest manofsteel]

Good to know, just changed my out look on the sigh thing. Now if they catch me and ask me to leave, Ill go, just wont pay attention to the signs to start with.

[Guest Caveman]

I have read that if it's properly posted, you're breaking the law.

I have a "NO SOLICITORS" sign posted on my door, does that mean if a solicitor comes in they can be arrested for breaking the law?

[mikegideon]

I have a "NO SOLICITORS" sign posted on my door, does that mean if a solicitor comes in they can be arrested for breaking the law?

Nope. You should hire the Brady Bunch to get that law changed :-). I don't want to lose one of my guns aor my permit, so I'm not going to carry in a posted place.

[Guest bkelm18]

If the sign is LEGALLY worded, it carries the weight of the law and you cannot carry there. If the sign is NOT LEGALLY worded, it does not carry the weight of the law and the most the store owner can do is ask you to leave, which you must. Just to note, violation of a legally worded sign is a misdemeanor and IIRC you can't be charged with a misdemeanor unless it occurs in the presence of a LEO.

To add, the sign must be "substantially" worded similar to:

PURSUANT TO § 39-17-1359, THE OWNER/OPERATOR OF THIS PROPERTY HAS BANNED WEAPONS ON THIS PROPERTY, OR WITHIN THIS BUILDING OR THIS PORTION OF THIS BUILDING. FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THIS PROHIBITION IS PUNISHABLE AS A CRIMINAL ACT UNDER STATE LAW AND MAY SUBJECT THE VIOLATOR TO A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($500).

Edited February 2, 2010 by bkelm18

[setsdw]

Good question for a lawyer. I'll ask my buddy who's a lawyer in Cookeville and see what he says.

[Smith]

Good question for a lawyer. I'll ask my buddy who's a lawyer in Cookeville and see what he says.

Good idea, but I'd probably ask a local LE since they would be the ones enforcing the issue. IIRC you can be ticketed but not arrested unless you refuse to leave. Then it is a trespassing offense and not a weapons charge.

[setsdw]

I just talked to him and he said that if you have seen they sign and proceed anyway you are violating policy and are no longer welcome at the establishment. At that point you could be charged with trespassing if the owner wanted to. If the sign is reasonably posted and you claim to not have seen it that would just be a defense technique that may or may not work. It would really be up to the establishment and how hard they would want to press the issue. He said for sure if you made a scene about it you would asking for more charges. Best advice he said is just like others have said on here. If you see the sign, find another place to shop.

[jpowelle5]

Thanks everyone. I didn't mean to open up a can of worms. Since I do not have my permit yet - this was all a hypothetical question.

My stance is - I will just not do business with that establishment - but wanted to see what everyone had to say.

Thanks.

JP

[Guest Caveman]

I stand corrected

[Alpha7]

I think a judge could easily rule that a bad sign constituted the "will of the proprietor" and simply say, "well, you know what he meant."

That aint good enough. He would be going against the law if he ruled that way.

[Guest jackdm3]

But we know there are jackass judges that rule the way they seem fit, if they can get away with it.

[Oh Shoot]

So far, no one on TGO has ever even been able to point to a case where anyone in the state has even been charged with carrying in a posted business, a compliant posted one or not.

So apparently there has never been a test case, or at least, a conviction that was appealed high enough to get any press.

- OS

[JayC]

Oh boy, lots of bad info here...

Unless you're rude or the officer who comes out is having a bad day, most likely you'll simple be asked to leave once the officer determines you have a valid HCP.

As OhShoot has stated nobody has ever shown me a single case in TN of anybody being prosecuted until 39-17-1359 properly posted or not.

You'd have to try pretty darn hard to be the first one is my guess...

If this were to happen, I'd claim I didn't see any sign and that you'd be happy to leave if they don't want you to stay.... Again unless you're rude or the officer is having a very bad day 99/100 they'll just ask you to leave.

[Guest ljc3]

Here is what I don't understand. If the store is posted, why carry into the store and risk the confrontation? What am I missing?

[Guest jackdm3]

You're missing that they all seem to be related to Voldemort. A relative of Voldemort does nothing that you can understand.

[Guest biggun215]

AS A LE I WILL ONLY SAY THAT IF YOU SAW THE SIGN, YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW. HOWEVER, ALL THE OFFICERS I KNOW WOULD ASK YOU TO LEAVE AND/OR PLACE THE FIREARM SECURELY IN YOUR VEHICLE WHILE IN THE STORE. MOST OFFICERS KNOW IF YOU HAVE A PERMIT YOU HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE BACKGROUND CHECKS AND ARE LAW ABIDING CITIZENS. TO US THAT MEANS YOUR A GOOD GUY AND PROLLY ON OUR SIDE SO WE WANT TO KEEP YOU GUYS HAPPY. FOR THOSE OF YOU IN NASHVILLE, BASS PRO SHOP HAS A SIGN POSTED ON THE OUTSIDE DOOR BUT NOT ON THE ENTRANCE FROM THE MALL SO BE AWARE OF THIS.

[Guest Caveman]

AS A LE I WILL ONLY SAY THAT IF YOU SAW THE SIGN, YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW. HOWEVER, ALL THE OFFICERS I KNOW WOULD ASK YOU TO LEAVE AND/OR PLACE THE FIREARM SECURELY IN YOUR VEHICLE WHILE IN THE STORE. MOST OFFICERS KNOW IF YOU HAVE A PERMIT YOU HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE BACKGROUND CHECKS AND ARE LAW ABIDING CITIZENS. TO US THAT MEANS YOUR A GOOD GUY AND PROLLY ON OUR SIDE SO WE WANT TO KEEP YOU GUYS HAPPY. FOR THOSE OF YOU IN NASHVILLE, BASS PRO SHOP HAS A SIGN POSTED ON THE OUTSIDE DOOR BUT NOT ON THE ENTRANCE FROM THE MALL SO BE AWARE OF THIS.

If you take a look at your keyboard there is a little button that should have "caps lock" written on it. I'm gonna need you to go ahead and hit that button for me...ok....greeeeeeat, thanks abunch biggun.