Category Killers

[molonlabetn]

Rabbi, I understand what you're saying, but by that argument there are plenty of other snubnose revolvers which fit the same purpose as the J-frame, with equal success...

The list of firearms which fill a particular niche unequalled by any other model in current usage (regardless of who uses it) is very short... Even the J-frame doesn't make that one.

The FN Five-seveN might make the list... at least until H&K releases their answer chambered in 4.6x30.

Is the MP5 any better than an Uzi, given the price difference? I don't know.

With the Benelli, I have no doubt it is a fine gun. But it has plenty of competition for all kinds of reasons so I dont think it is a clear category killer.

Not considering price, I would much prefer to use an MP5 over an UZI... due to it being closed-bolt, more accurate, more controllable, and more user-friendly.

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi, I understand what you're saying, but by that argument there are plenty of other snubnose revolvers which fit the same purpose as the J-frame, with equal success...

The list of firearms which fill a particular niche unequalled by any other model in current usage (regardless of who uses it) is very short... Even the J-frame doesn't make that one.

You'd have a hard time naming any. The Taurus is merely a copy of the Smith. Colt has ceased production of its Dick. Ruger hasn't gained much traction with its SP101 because it is so heavy. And the Charter2000 is junk, with the original company going under some years ago.

Not considering price, I would much prefer to use an MP5 over an UZI... due to it being closed-bolt, more accurate, more controllable, and more user-friendly.

Not considering price, I'd rather have a Korth than this Smith. Unfortunately in the real world price plays a big role. In service revolver the Smith Model 10/64 ate Colt's lunch, not because the guns were better (they're not) but because they were cheaper and easier to service. The Model 10 is still a catalogue item and has been in continuous production since 1899 more or less.

[molonlabetn]

...Colt has ceased production of its Dick...

For posterity...

[Guest Disney]

Tell you this much, I never want to get into a Ford vs Chevy argument with The Rabbi.

[towerclimber37]

My 2 cents for catagory killers:

Submachine guns: MP-5 family of weapons.

Auto Loading Shotguns: Benelli M1 Super 90 family.

Center fire rifles: None, either bolt action, self loading or lever.

Center fire pistols: None, either self loading or revolver.

hmmmm I'd have to say on the submachine guns, that I would change that to the sa's made by belgium..thats what the mps' are. along with the cetme..the germans asked belgium to lisence the sa's to them..and Belgium said "you invaded us not to long ago...go blow goats ya nazis"...so they went to spain and created the cetme from Belgian designs...and from there sprang the mp family of weapons...

they're ok for an mp..but then again so is an Uzi and umm Israeli arms sells to civillians

and why can't they make a weapon that locks the bolt back when the mag is empty???? just a question.

[The Rabbi]

Tell you this much, I never want to get into a Ford vs Chevy argument with The Rabbi.

It's not a Ford vs Chevy argument. It's a discussion about guns that assume almost an iconic status. Anyone looking for a semi auto .22 rifle is going to look at and probably buy a Ruger 10/22. There are plenty of good .22 semis out there but the Ruger seems to have the best combination of features to appeal to the most people. Anyone looking for a deer rifle is going to look at and probably buy a lever action 30-30. There are plenty of deer rifles and all of them are good. But the lever 30-30 just does it so well. Ditto anyone looking for a ECQB/back up pistol. They will end up looking at a snub, probably a j-frame Smith or the equivalent. There are other things that will do the job but this does it so well. And so on. And sometimes there is no clear winner.

[Guest gcrookston]

SEALs are great, but they are not a unit whose primary operations focus on the use of pistols. The pistol is an extremely important weapon, but they use rifles and things that go bang primarily.

Depends on the mission, but each member of the platoon typically carries a side arm in addition to their regular kit. If they are taking down a ship or building, you can pretty much bet the entire unit will be fitted out with MP-5s and sidearms.

Before 9/11 a single team of Navy SEALs would consume more small arms ammunition per year in training than the entire USMC.

As a branch, their training and use of side arms exceeds any other branch of service.

[Marswolf]

Tell you this much, I never want to get into a Ford vs Chevy argument with The Rabbi.

Which does he like?

I like the other one.

[Im Neero]

Depends on the mission, but each member of the platoon typically carries a side arm in addition to their regular kit. If they are taking down a ship or building, you can pretty much bet the entire unit will be fitted out with MP-5s and sidearms.

Before 9/11 a single team of Navy SEALs would consume more small arms ammunition per year in training than the entire USMC.

As a branch, their training and use of side arms exceeds any other branch of service.

Hmm, I think you may know more about the SEALs than I do, so I'll bow out of this one.

[Guest gcrookston]

Hmm, I think you may know more about the SEALs than I do, so I'll bow out of this one.

My younger brother is Annapolis '87 and UDT/SEALs Class 158. He served in Teams 2 and 4 from 1988-1998... I was fortunate enough to met many of the men that served with and for him during my visits to Littlecreek when I lived in Greensboro and still keep in regular contact with several of them.

[Guest DrBoomBoom]

How about the Walther PP design? Lots of copies and variants, but basically the same thing.

[The Rabbi]

How about the Walther PP design? Lots of copies and variants, but basically the same thing.

It's a seminal design for sure. And probably at one time it was a category killer, the small pocket auto.

But today the pocket auto is probably the fastest growing category in handguns and we see the Kel Tec, the new Walther, the Kahr, etc, all based on different designs.

[Marswolf]

I saw a Brendel P-10 (.380) today. Does that fit the category?

[The Rabbi]

I saw a Brendel P-10 (.380) today. Does that fit the category?

Better a Brendel than a Block...

[Marswolf]

"B" - "G". Whichever fits.

One of George Kelgren's handguns.

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

No one has mentioned the H&H side by sides? Is it a niche market? Sure, but H&H has been making them forever. For the deep-pocketed collector who wants the most prestigious big-bore old world rifle/shotgun, nothing in any reasonable volume comes close. Could you hunt elephant with a modern bolt action? Sure, but I'd take an H&H .460NE if I had that kind of cash.

There may not be millions of these out there, but they have a long history, and I don't see them going anywhere any time soon.

In the big bore old world rifles, the H&H's take the cake.

[The Rabbi]

I dunno. Double rifle? Krieghoff, Merkel, etc etc. Even in the category of "big game gun" the double rifle has competition from the bolt gun.

[Mike.357]

The Double rifle rifle would be nice as a toy, but Bill is right. The Bolt rifle totally trumps a Double rifle.

[Guest gcrookston]

[Guest gcrookston]

The Double rifle rifle would be nice as a toy, but Bill is right. The Bolt rifle totally trumps a Double rifle.

A bolt action trumps a lever action, but wasn't that one of the guns that was a "catagory killer?" and auto loaders trump wheel guns, but the debate goes on...

[Guest bullseye717]

Ak-47. It's on the flag of Mozambique for crying out loud.

[Marswolf]

Flag symbolism

Green: The riches of the soil

Black: The African continent

Yellow: The mineral riches

White: The peace

Red: The country’s struggle for independence

The Emblem:

Yellow star: The solidarity of the people and the socialistic beliefs of the country

Book: Education

Hoe: Peasants and agriculture

AK-47: The nation’s determination to protect its freedom

Just socialist chest thumping.

Hey, what model is that hoe. Must be the best in the world to be on a flag!

[The Rabbi]

A bolt action trumps a lever action, but wasn't that one of the guns that was a "catagory killer?" and auto loaders trump wheel guns, but the debate goes on...

It depends on the application. You dont see too many doubles produced today. Probably because the market for people who can afford $100k safaris is pretty limited. The bolt is good in all kinds of applications for long range precision shooting.

But applications that dont require long range precision shooting (e.g. deer hunting in this area) dont need that and are well suited to, e.g. levers.

[Guest DrBoomBoom]

gcrookston,

I don't know if I'd say an auto completely trumps a wheelgun. It's definitely able to carry more rounds, and to most folks, except Jerry Miculek, it's a faster shoot. But most of them require a little more knowledge and a few more skills to manipulate and care for. And, often they require a bit of hand strength to rack the slide. If I were recommending a gun for someone's granny or daughter, or for a totally inexperienced shooter who has an immediate need for a self defense gun, it would most likely be a revolver.

[Guest Shooting Coach]

I would consider "category killers" to be a standard that is in current production and used on a large scale. It may have been phased out, but was redeployed, and where a design improvement is unlikely or unnecessary.

Smith "J" frame

Glock

1911 cal 45

Remington 870

AR-15

SKS

AK-47

M-98 Mauser type sporting rifle YMMV