Category Killers

[The Rabbi]

This was inspired by the 1911 discussion and some in-store discussions I've had.

A customer was looking at a Marlin 30-30 I've got and commented on how the gun is about ideal for hunting deer in this area. He noted and I agreed that the accuracy of the gun, the caliber, and the action were all perfectly suited to its purpose: shooting deer at 100 yards or less in the eastern U.S. This is probably why Marlin/Winchester etc have made this gun in this caliber for probably 100 years.

Similarly is the Smith j-frame, usually in .38spc. For its intended purpose there is really nothing better. Any attempt to make it better only takes away something else. Probably why the gun has been a standard for 50 years

What other guns out there are "category killers" where any attempt to improve on it only introduces other problems?

I am thinking the Rem 870 12ga pump, the .50BMG (is that the M2 machine gun?), and the Mauser rifle (at least the bolt action design).

Others?

[molonlabetn]

The AK (millions of peasants and conscripts can't be wrong)

The 1911 (Filled the combat handgun need for 2 world wars, and is still the golden standard)

The Glock (impervious to powdered sugar)

20mm M61 Vulcan (No U.S. fighter or warship is complete without one)

Remington 700 (Taken alot of deer, and alot of bad guys)

M1 Garand/M14 (Talk about a tried & trued warhorse...)

...I'll think of more, I'm sure...

[The Rabbi]

The AK (millions of peasants and conscripts can't be wrong)

The 1911 (Filled the combat handgun need for 2 world wars, and is still the golden standard)

The Glock (impervious to powdered sugar)

20mm M61 Vulcan (No U.S. fighter or warship is complete without one)

Remington 700 (Taken alot of deer, and alot of bad guys)

M1 Garand/M14 (Talk about a tried & trued warhorse...)

...I'll think of more, I'm sure...

AK, largely superceded by the AR platform.

1911, totally superceded by everything else out there.

Glock. Too early to tell. Has created a revolution in that every manufacturer is making a striker fired polymer pistol.

20mm Vulcan. I guess so.

Rem 700. Basically a Mauser action.

M1/M14 totally superceded by AR platform. M14 has distinction as the shortest-serving battle rifle in the US.

[molonlabetn]

AK, largely superceded by the AR platform.

1911, totally superceded by everything else out there.

Glock. Too early to tell. Has created a revolution in that every manufacturer is making a striker fired polymer pistol.

20mm Vulcan. I guess so.

Rem 700. Basically a Mauser action.

M1/M14 totally superceded by AR platform. M14 has distinction as the shortest-serving battle rifle in the US.

I'd be very surprised if there were even half as many AR-types in service or general useage as AK-types...

The 1911 is a century old, and has been in service for nearly that long. No semi-auto combat pistol is looked upon with as much veneration.

The Glock, it dominates the low-end cookie-cutter market... and even though there are indeed improved makes which fill the same role, the Glock was marketed by geniuses, and will always be remembered as the first successful 'new generation' service pistol.

I'll concede that the R700 is essentially a Mauser action... I don't know much about such rifles.

The M1/M14 is still in service (limited of course), but it's got an irrevokable place in the heart of the US Military.

[The Rabbi]

I am talking about guns produced and sold because they are still the best at what they do.

The 1911 is not in that class. The AK might be although you dont see too many countries adopting it. The Glock is too recent. The M14 is used because 1) it shoots a larger caliber bullet, 2) we have plenty in arsenal. People who actually carried them (at least those I've talked to) didnt have too much positive to say about them).

I'll add the Ruger Mark I and progeny. There just isnt a lot of serious competition in that class of pistol.

[molonlabetn]

The Ruger 10/22 should be on the list, as well.

[towerclimber37]

I am talking about guns produced and sold because they are still the best at what they do.

The M14 is used because 1) it shoots a larger caliber bullet, 2) we have plenty in arsenal. People who actually carried them (at least those I've talked to) didnt have too much positive to say about them).

I'll add the Ruger Mark I and progeny. There just isnt a lot of serious competition in that class of pistol.

the m1a Garand should be in that class as well. in its class, its the best battle rifle in the world.

[The Rabbi]

the m1a Garand should be in that class as well. in its class, its the best battle rifle in the world.

That's why it's still standard issue in armies all over the world, right?

[molonlabetn]

The Beretta M9 is currently in popular service around the world, but I doubt that anyone would consider it the best in its class & caliber. The Sig P225/228/226 might be though. Or the Browning Hi-Power, or the CZ-75...

But there are better pistols out there which are not in common service... such as the H&P P30 perhaps.

It certainly has alot to live up to, compared to the 1911. The P30 or HK45 might be able to, though. It is yet to be seen.

[Marswolf]

I'm not of the view that there are any category killers.

Yeah, there are guns that have been used for a long time and those that were innovative and an improvement when they came out. But those guns have been incrementally improved over time, often by other manufacturers.

There is almost always something better available or just over the horizon.

Would I go hunting with a 30-30 lever action? Well, yes I would. But I like to think of myself as a sportsman rather than a shooter. I think there are better deer rifles out there if all you want to do is kill a buck or doe. To be a sportsman, you have to give the animal a "sporting" chance. That means no attractants, stands, or super-rifles. But that's just me. If I was hungry, I'd take every advantage I could get.

[Im Neero]

The 1911 is still considered by many as the finest full sized combat handgun available. That is the opinion of people that actually engage in combat, mind you, not people that are issued a weapon that they have no interest in using or mastering. The 1911 has been around and in use for longer than the j-frame by a large margin.

This should be interesting.

[saintsfanbrian]

Category killer? Any pistol in caliber .22. Used by many mafia types to neutralize "threats" quickly. The cheaper the better because it can be thrown away. Preferably a revolver as no casings are left behind.

[Mark@Sea]

Rabbi, unless you are deliberately trying to stir up a fuss, I completely miss your point on the 1911 being superceded. In its' various renditions it commands a major share of the market - in fact, there are revolvers, 1911's, and 'everything else'. It is still quite capable of putting lead on target - a point I'd be happy to demonstrate anytime you are in my area (well, I didn't really mean that the way it sounds...) and as far as I know, the stopping power of the .45 is still the standard to meet - and has been since the Moro uprising.

The M14 is of course completely superceded by the AR platform, which is why virtually every one in the inventory is in use, Crane has been stripped bare, and they've been pulled off ships for rework/re-issue to the ground-pounders in Iraq.

Wanna buy an AR?

[Guest gcrookston]

I am talking about guns produced and sold because they are still the best at what they do.

The 1911 is not in that class. The AK might be although you dont see too many countries adopting it. The Glock is too recent. The M14 is used because 1) it shoots a larger caliber bullet, 2) we have plenty in arsenal. People who actually carried them (at least those I've talked to) didnt have too much positive to say about them).

I'll add the Ruger Mark I and progeny. There just isnt a lot of serious competition in that class of pistol.

The M14 and specifically the M21 and M25 varients remain in inventory with a recent referb contract awarded to Smith Enterprises because they are arguably the best DMR out there, a roll the AR has not been able to fill with the questionable exception of the costly SR25.

The Ruger Marks are and remain a cheap (though reliable), alternative to better and more expensive pistols in their class. In the beginning it was the Woodsman. Today it is the Buckmark. In the competition arena they are still a distant second to Hammerli 208, 280 and PS20, Pardini SP, Feinwerkbau AW and even to S&W 41. I will concede; to all but the dedicated few, the 2x,3x and even 4x cost of a Ruger of these thoroughbreds is hard to justify. The Olympic class competition is such a small market niche, I don't expect Ruger to ever seriously compete or attempt to market such a pistol to the masses. Hammerli tried with the Trailside, but initially had technical problems "cheapening" them.

[molonlabetn]

...The 1911 has been around and in use for longer than the j-frame by a large margin.

This should be interesting.

Truer words have never been spoken... But I imagine that some might argue that j-frames are more common that 1911s (I'm not sure if that can be backed up with facts, though).

[towerclimber37]

I had a wicked post about the m1 garand set..it didn't get posted...good thing too, I would have made rabbi mad.

suffice it to say that IN ITS CLASS i.e battle rifles fielded in ww2, it was the best. how do I know this? we won didn't we?

an m1 garand commands a price of around 9-1300 dollars today. the mauser? round 300.

as for reliability? heh. its epic. so I would say that it belongs in that class.

don't ask for suggestions and then get snide Rab. its not nice.

[Guest gcrookston]

The 1911 is still considered by many as the finest full sized combat handgun available. That is the opinion of people that actually engage in combat, mind you, not people that are issued a weapon that they have no interest in using or mastering.

I believe if this were true, the SEALs would have gone back to the 1911 or at least kept it in inventory. Instead they replaced it with the P226. Then, in conjunction with HK developed the MK23 (which ended up being a weapon without a mission), before adopting the USP Tactical .45 for mission specific requirements while retaining the P226.

[molonlabetn]

The Marine Corps (MEU) still has a fair # of 1911s in use...

[Guest Verbal Kint]

The Marine Corps (MEU) still has a fair # of 1911s in use...

And even more USMC units are dropping the M9 in favor of returning to the 1911 again.

[Guest gcrookston]

My 2 cents for catagory killers:

Submachine guns: MP-5 family of weapons.

Auto Loading Shotguns: Benelli M1 Super 90 family.

Self Loading .22 Rifle: Ruger 10-22

LMG: Mg42 and derivatives (including the M60 and HK Mg3)

Center fire rifles: None, either bolt action, self loading or lever.

Center fire pistols: None, either self loading or revolver.

[The Rabbi]

From the noise generated I see the point didnt get made.

The j-frame is ideally suited to what it does. It is designed for ECQB or back up. It is excellently suited to that role and will continue to do that probably forever. I cannot think of another gun that can assume that role.

The lever 30-30 is in the same class. What is going to be an improvement over that?

In the category of service pistol there really isnt a category killer. Countries use the Glock, the SIG, the Hi Power, the CZ etc. There is no clear winner. For sure not the 1911, which has limited use and was never adopted by other countries.

In battle rifles there doesnt seem to be a clear cut winner although the M1/M14 is the clear loser. The fact that some have been held over is merely a historical fact not connected to its value. Is the M14 really better than the Cetme/G3/FN-FAL? I dont know. Neither does anyone else. It isn't a clear winner.

For the Ruger, it is true a Hammerli is a better pistol. But not for $350 out the door. The Ruger Mark I series will probably be around forever because it provides a reliable accurate .22 pistol at a good price point that will make it popular. Yes, the Woodsman and High Standard were contenders but they arent made now and probably never sold in as much volume.

[The Rabbi]

My 2 cents for catagory killers:

Submachine guns: MP-5 family of weapons.

Auto Loading Shotguns: Benelli M1 Super 90 family.

Self Loading .22 Rifle: Ruger 10-22

LMG: Mg42 and derivatives (including the M60 and HK Mg3)

Center fire rifles: None, either bolt action, self loading or lever.

Center fire pistols: None, either self loading or revolver.

That's a toughie. The SMG is really a dying breed. No civillian sales and no interest from military or LE.

Auto loading shotguns: again no clear winner. I dont know how many Benellis have been sold compared to Rem 1100s. Give it another 20 years or so and we'll see.

auto .22 rifle: absolutely the 10/22.

[molonlabetn]

Well, the MP5 is the most common SMG in service... with the P90 and HK7 up-and-coming.

Rem 1100 may be more common, but there's no doubt that the Benelli M1014 (military issue) is a much better combat shotgun.

[The Rabbi]

Well, the MP5 is the most common SMG in service... with the P90 and HK7 up-and-coming.

Rem 1100 may be more common, but there's no doubt that the Benelli M1014 (military issue) is a much better combat shotgun.

Is the MP5 any better than an Uzi, given the price difference? I don't know.

With the Benelli, I have no doubt it is a fine gun. But it has plenty of competition for all kinds of reasons so I dont think it is a clear category killer.

[Im Neero]

I believe if this were true, the SEALs would have gone back to the 1911 or at least kept it in inventory. Instead they replaced it with the P226. Then, in conjunction with HK developed the MK23 (which ended up being a weapon without a mission), before adopting the USP Tactical .45 for mission specific requirements while retaining the P226.

SEALs are great, but they are not a unit whose primary operations focus on the use of pistols. The pistol is an extremely important weapon, but they use rifles and things that go bang primarily.