trading handguns without a transfer

[molonlabetn]

I'm totally against firearms registration... but it's responsible to CYA with at least some way to contact the person you pass any major purchase on to (gun, vehicle, etc...), just for liability's sake. Plus, everyone should keep some unofficial record of what guns they own, or have owned, even just for insurance purposes. That's just smart.

Most of the guns I have sold off went to people I knew, and many I still know... if I didn't, I at least got a name and phone number. I don't need to know your address or blood type though... not really.

[The Rabbi]

I agree 100% but my personal stance is that if someone refuses to fill out the transfer form, then I'm going to refuse to sell the firearm to them. I also take time to explain to the buyer that it benefits them as well since I give them an exact copy of the form that they could use to show the police where they purchased the firearm if a question ever arose.

I'm not trying to be a dick about it. I just insist on mutual CYA when I do a private sale of a firearm. It strikes me as being the socially responsible thing to do.

Obviously you can sell to anyone you want in any manner you want. My point is that:

1) The form is not required by law.

2) The form is not binding or legally meaningful in any way.

3) The form asks for information that I find personally insulting.

4) The form offers no protection to either buyer or seller above and beyond a simple bill of sale.

If you can answer those objections then I'd recommend people use it.

[Im Neero]

I like the method that Brian and I used. If the cops come asking where my XD=9 is, I have a signed piece of paper saying some guy named Brian has it now. If the cops want to track him down, they can find him theirselves.

[Marswolf]

I wish this was 1967 and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[molonlabetn]

I wish this was 1967 and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'd be buying a brand new Z-28...

[Guest Verbal Kint]

I wish this was 1942 and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I agree.

[jgrauman]

Obviously you can sell to anyone you want in any manner you want. My point is that:

1) The form is not required by law.

2) The form is not binding or legally meaningful in any way.

3) The form asks for information that I find personally insulting.

4) The form offers no protection to either buyer or seller above and beyond a simple bill of sale.

If you can answer those objections then I'd recommend people use it.

every gun i've ever bought i've had to fill out this form. Why shouldn't I have someone else do it. So what if it's not legally binding, so what if it's not required by law (neither is a BOS). If a cop ever comes knocking on my door about my .38 i have that exact form with the info on where it is. It was conveniently provided by tungsten, and it's the same form the federal government uses. as far as the form asking insulting information, i'm sure you were asked WAY more insulting info during you FFL licensing (and you answered that). Sure it doesn't offer anymore protection for either buyer or seller, but a BOS is still a paper trail just as this is. Sign this, sign a BOS, don't sign anything. if a previously owned gun is ever used in a crime and i'm a suspect because of it, i'd rather my lawyer have this form than a BOS or nothing at all. "your honor, my client is a responsible gun owner who goes the extra mile requiring all of his buyers to fill out a federal form which is not even required by law." i find it funny that the argument against this form is coming from an FFL dealer who has jumped through all the hoops the government holds up.

[jgrauman]

Seems to me that Rabbi is right here.

All one has to do is ask the buyer if they are prohibited from purchasing a firearm. From that point on it is up to the buyer to tell the truth. I suppose if you want to you could take down the buyers name and hometown. More than likely a self written receipt kept

by the buyer stating the date, type of weapon, serial number and to whom it was sold would suffice legally to CYA if needed. Even if you sold a gun that later turned up used in a crime the man still has to prove that you were the criminal using the gun.

I doubt I would fill out a sellers Q and A form either.

ah yes, the old "hand written receipt." try using that in court to prove the date of a transaction, the person it was sold too and what was sold. hand written tax returns work well also, use them to apply for loans.

[The Rabbi]

every gun i've ever bought i've had to fill out this form. Why shouldn't I have someone else do it. So what if it's not legally binding, so what if it's not required by law (neither is a BOS). If a cop ever comes knocking on my door about my .38 i have that exact form with the info on where it is. It was conveniently provided by tungsten, and it's the same form the federal government uses. as far as the form asking insulting information, i'm sure you were asked WAY more insulting info during you FFL licensing (and you answered that). Sure it doesn't offer anymore protection for either buyer or seller, but a BOS is still a paper trail just as this is. Sign this, sign a BOS, don't sign anything. if a previously owned gun is ever used in a crime and i'm a suspect because of it, i'd rather my lawyer have this form than a BOS or nothing at all. "your honor, my client is a responsible gun owner who goes the extra mile requiring all of his buyers to fill out a federal form which is not even required by law." i find it funny that the argument against this form is coming from an FFL dealer who has jumped through all the hoops the government holds up.

So your argument is that because the gov't asks intrusive questions then private citizens ought to ask them too? This is so even though the paper offers no protection to the buyer or seller (as you admit). Nor can the buyer be prosecuted for giving false info (unlike the Federal form).

So essentially this is a "feel good" piece of paper. Kind of like gun control laws.

[jgrauman]

So your argument is that because the gov't asks intrusive questions then private citizens ought to ask them too? This is so even though the paper offers no protection to the buyer or seller (as you admit). Nor can the buyer be prosecuted for giving false info (unlike the Federal form).

So essentially this is a "feel good" piece of paper. Kind of like gun control laws.

in this line of argument your BOS is a POS as well. neither is legally binding for the transfer of a gun.

[Mike.357]

I wish this was 1967 and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Where were you in '67?

I'd be buying a brand new Z-28...

Mail order from Viet Nam?

requiring all of his buyers to fill out a federal form which is not even required by law.

Some form you make up on a word processor is not a federal form.

the old "hand written receipt."

A dated, hand written receipt is very much okay to have. And yes it would be valid in court.

If a FTF sale of a firearm is legal all this BS about needing paperwork is just that BS! If the man wanted you to use a bogus federal form he would specify it in a law.

Rabbi is very right here. This whole thing of saying a made up form is needed is like most gun laws, a bunch of feel good foo-foo that actually serves no real purpose.

Cripes all I wanted to know in the first place was if a handgun could be sold FTF without involving a FFL And the answer is yes so that alone proves the rest is BS.

[jgrauman]

So your argument is that because the gov't asks intrusive questions then private citizens ought to ask them too?

yes. i will not willingly sell a gun to a criminal, and most criminals would be wary of filling out this form. i would gladly have you tell me to F off and go home at night "feeling good" that i didn't just sell my weapon to somebody who meant to do harm with it

[The Rabbi]

yes. i will not willingly sell a gun to a criminal, and most criminals would be wary of filling out this form. i would gladly have you tell me to F off and go home at night "feeling good" that i didn't just sell my weapon to somebody who meant to do harm with it

That's exactly the point: most criminals will not be wary. If they're criminals, they lie. That might be news to you. If they lie on the 4473 then they'll get prosecuted. If they lie on the Mickey73 they'll get scolded. Maybe.

Are you planning on keeping the forms for 20 years like I have to?

[The Rabbi]

I'd be buying a brand new Z-28...

I doubt you were born by then.

I wouldnt be doing much of anything, being only 5 years old.

[jgrauman]

That's exactly the point: most criminals will not be wary. If they're criminals, they lie. That might be news to you. If they lie on the 4473 then they'll get prosecuted. If they lie on the Mickey73 they'll get scolded. Maybe.

Are you planning on keeping the forms for 20 years like I have to?

i don't care what happens to them, i'm worried about me. no that's not news to me. do criminals come in to your store and lie on your forms, i doubt you get many of them if any. if they are expecting a backyard deal and you present them with an official form, they will be wary to sign it. if they lie and do then i don't care. i'm not going to punish them, i'm going to give it to my lawyer when the cops come wanting to know where the gun is (as i already stated) i'm covering my ass as best i can, undocumented transfers this day in age are ABSOLUTELY STUPID. if you want to do them, go for it. as for the form you use if you are going to, this is a great one.

edited to add: yes i will keep it for the next 20 years, more than likely till the day i die, it's with all my other records including birth certificate.

[The Rabbi]

If you can produce one or two cases where someone sold a gun to a criminal and then got prosecuted for a subsequent crime (where the gun was recovered) your case would be a lot stronger.

The downside to using the form is that a certain number of buyers (like me) will be put off and won't buy the gun from you. If you're OK with that then go for it. Me, I prefer to sell guns within the letter of the law.

[dralarms]

Deleted due to sticking my nose where it dosen't belong. Won't happen again.:surrender::surrender:

[jgrauman]

IOW take a chill pill

easy... don't think anybody's trying to drive a wedge anywhere, pretty sure we can have an argument about our opinions without the need for mediation

[Marswolf]

Where were you in '67?

Finishing high school. That was the year before the Gun Control Act. That was my reference. All this paperwork crap didn't exist then. You could order a gun by mail or at the hardware store without government interference.

[Mike.357]

if they lie and do then i don't care. i'm not going to punish them, i'm going to give it to my lawyer when the cops come wanting to know where the gun is (as i already stated) i'm covering my ass as best i can, undocumented transfers this day in age are ABSOLUTELY STUPID.

So if they lie and you sell them the gun what was the point of doing some trumped up piece of paperwork anyway? If the cops want to know where the gun is telling them that you sold it FTF is the answer. That is all the law asks for as I understand it.

pretty sure we can have an argument about our opinions without the need for mediation

+1

Where were you in '67?

Finishing high school.

with your age I thought maybe you were overseas ordering that Z28 .

Guess it would have been a year or so to soon. I caught the reference to '68

[Marswolf]

with your age I thought maybe you were overseas ordering that Z28 .

Guess it would have been a year or so to soon. I caught the reference to '68

In '68, I had a summer job as an Intel liaison. Long story.... I went to Vietnam in '69. Came home bandaged a bit.

[jgrauman]

So if they lie and you sell them the gun what was the point of doing some trumped up piece of paperwork anyway? If the cops want to know where the gun is telling them that you sold it FTF is the answer. That is all the law asks for as I understand it.

if a previously owned gun is ever used in a crime and i'm a suspect because of it, i'd rather my lawyer have this form than a BOS or nothing at all. "your honor, my client is a responsible gun owner who goes the extra mile requiring all of his buyers to fill out a federal form which is not even required by law."

i'm going to give it to my lawyer when the cops come wanting to know where the gun is (as i already stated) i'm covering my ass as best i can

mike i've answered this twice. i know what the law requires and i'm not saying it requires more or you have to do more than it requires. i'm saying i'm going to do as much as possible to make sure i'm covered. Just as i save every email that has any documentation of "he said, she said" and any piece of paper with the same. unfortunately we all live in a flawed system as we all know and since i choose to live here, i'm subject to those flaws. I don't want to get caught up in one. I choose not to do the minimum the law requires, that doesn't always work.

edited to answer: straw purchases are also a concern i have with "i sold it ftf." especially if that guy turns out to be a criminal, maybe the DA says, "i bet that guy bought it for him." you just never know

[Mike.357]

answered this twice

Sometimes it's just fun to disagree

Mars, glad you made it back for sure. There a couple of kids on my street that went in 68 or 69, one did not make it back.

[The Rabbi]

That was the year before the Gun Control Act. That was my reference. All this paperwork crap didn't exist then. You could order a gun by mail or at the hardware store without government interference.

Thank Lee Harvey Oswald and Sirhan Sirhan (those Palestinians screwing things up for the rest of us). If Oswald had just bought his rifle in a hardware store like most people they probably never would have thought about outlawing mail order. As I often say, bad cases make bad laws.

[Guest GlocKingTN]

So after 5 pages of this question, the answer is this: You can buy/sell a firearm with someone from your homestate(tennessee) without any kind of paperwork, period! But it is up to you (the buyer/seller) if you want to sign anything. Now that was easy!