trading handguns without a transfer

[The Rabbi]

So after 5 pages of this question, the answer is this: You can buy/sell a firearm with someone from your homestate(tennessee) without any kind of paperwork, period! But it is up to you (the buyer/seller) if you want to sign anything. Now that was easy!

Well, yeah. But what kind of fun would that have been?

[Guest dotsun]

That's exactly the point: most criminals will not be wary. If they're criminals, they lie. That might be news to you. If they lie on the 4473 then they'll get prosecuted. If they lie on the Mickey73 they'll get scolded. Maybe.

Are you planning on keeping the forms for 20 years like I have to?

Damn, I have to agree with Rabbi on this one. I'd probably fill out the form if I really wanted the gun, but I certainly wouldn't ask someone to fill it out if I were selling.

[Guest canynracer]

From the ATF website, section B16- http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b2

(B16) What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction? [Back]

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are "same-State" residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S. C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.

[Guest tadams]

Not trying to hijack thread, but rather add a twist on to it:

Is it legal, then, specifically for residents of TN/ VA to do a "face to face" transaction, without an FFL??

Travis

[Mike.357]

Is it legal, then, for residents of TN/ VA to do a "face to face" transaction

Are TN and VA the same state?

the answer is obvious

[molonlabetn]

Not trying to hijack thread, but rather add a twist on to it:

Is it legal, then, for residents of TN/ VA to do a "face to face" transaction, without a FFL??

Travis

The two people involved in the private transaction must be residents of the same state, regardless of which state. So, as I understand your question, the answer is no. A person may only purchase a firearm from another resident or FFL holder of the same state.

[Smith]

Nobody has addressed the liability issue of someone who has a keeps a documented record of a gun they once sold to you. What if you sold it to someone else and it was used illegally? What about the possibility of blackmail for a variety of reasons? What about the simple issue of registration?

I am amazed that gun rights people would even think this is a noble and good idea (personal forms). It totally violates the second amendment . Is it different if it is violated by the government or a private citizen. sounds like liberals arguing on here! They argue they are just being responsible citizens. hmmmm? Now what site am I on?

[Guest tadams]

the answer is obvious

Well, no... the answer isn't obvious. The ATF page, nor any I have read for VA or TN tells you what NOT to do. (Can do this... can do that...) B16 as quoted above, even, just references what is allowed for same state citizens.

Does anyone have a link they can point me to where the ATF or ??? spells it out directly?

Travis

[Mike.357]

ta, the answer is already given

(B16) What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction? [Back]

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are "same-State" residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S. C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.

The bit that canyn provided gives the answer. Two private individuals. It makes no mention of different states. No mention to me means it is not legal<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Marswolf]

Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA.

This sounds like an excellent reason to not ask these questions. Don't ask - don't tell. As long as you do not know that the person you are selling to isn't prohibited, then you are within the law per ATF.

Apart from that, if you want to sell me a gun, you better not ask me to sign something. Personal preference.

[dariks]

Apart from that, if you want to sell me a gun, you better not ask me to sign something. Personal preference.

I agree with Mars. If you want me to fill out your own version of the 4473 or some such then I'll walk away. It's bad enough I have to give my information to the state so there's no way I will give it to a private citizen who has no legal right to ask for it.

[Guest canynracer]

Well, no... the answer isn't obvious. The ATF page, nor any I have read for VA or TN tells you what NOT to do. (Can do this... can do that...) B16 as quoted above, even, just references what is allowed for same state citizens.

Does anyone have a link they can point me to where the ATF or ??? spells it out directly?

Travis

Hey ta, same link, b3

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State? [Back]

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922((3)]

there is this definition of a Resident:

(B11) What constitutes residency in a State? [Back]

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,†in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(, 922(a) (3), and 922((3), 27 CFR 478.11]

[Guest tadams]

Thanks canyn... I did read both those, as well. I guess I just see holes big enough to drive a Mack Truck through all over that entire ATF page. I'm frustrated by the lack of simple english definition and explanation.

I love law, in general, and it's intriguing to me and fits my anally retentive nature. I like good law, though - with Concise and accurate wording. This is not and, sadly, it's the best thing out there that I've found, so far.

I'm not looking for a loophole. I'm asking so that I don't do something wrong. I ABSOLUTELY do not want to destroy any possibilities of my 2nd amendment rights, nor infringe on someone else's by acting outside the law.

I'm just new to the laws and want to get them down pat so that I know and feel comfortable enough with them to use them to their potential; as well as how they were intended.

Travis

[Mike.357]

the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State.

Intentions may change. This is a HUGE HOLE, for sure big enough to drive a Mack truck though. If this is an actual law, and not some ATF interpretation there is a lot of doubt in a face to face sale. tadams you have raised some great points.

[Guest tngunman]

Lawyers intentionally make things vague. I was told by one "so we can change the meaning if needed"

That form (page 1) asks for a lot of info that I would never provide. I think a simple bill of sale is ok and I usually want one no matter which side of the transaction I'm on.

[dralarms]

Lawyers intentionally make things vague. I was told by one "so we can change the meaning if needed"

That form (page 1) asks for a lot of info that I would never provide. I think a simple bill of sale is ok and I usually want one no matter which side of the transaction I'm on.

Thank you, that's all I was trying to say.

[ioerror001]

My personal opinion on the subject is this.

If I bought the gun "without papers" I will sell it without papers. If I had it shipped to a FFL and it has my name on it. I need at least a name and phone number to give to the atf if it's ever used in a crime. I think some of the bill of sales like the one suggested on here are ridiculous. I shouldn't have to give any regular citizen that much info on me. However I have had friends sell guns that are later used in a crime and when the cops come looking at you for it, "some guy at a gun show" just doesn't cut it. If you can't show when and to whom you sold the gun, then your left with the burden of proving you didn't commit what crime they are questioning you for. Sometimes it would be quick, sometimes it will cost you an attorney and a lot of hassle.

So that's why I always get papers if it's "papered" to me. I wouldn't ask anyone for any information I wouldn't want them having on me. I don't ask for DL # or SSN or anything like that. And before I sell I usually verbally ask your not a felon or anything right. That in my opinion is the equivalent of CYA for this type sell. IF I'm wrong I guess I'll find out when the wrong person buys one of my guns.