trading handguns without a transfer

[Mike.357]

I have been looking through the link Mars provided

http://www.michie.com/

for information on the trading of firearms between two TN residents and I see nothing.

can two TN residents trade handguns without doing a transfer at an FFL?

If it matter they are relatives in this instance.

[towerclimber37]

if its face to face? as long as they both know that the other one isn't a felon or a nut, I wouldn't see why not.

[KahrMan]

As I understand it, as long as both parties are residents of the same state you do not have to do a transfer at a ffl. If you wanted to buy one of my guns, we meet, you give me the money and I give you the gun. All perfectly legal.

[Smith]

the answer is no - you do not need to tranfer FFL. that is only in the case of interstate trades. You can even ship it to someone inside the state on a sale without a FFL.

[Mike.357]

Wow lots of fast replies.

does the fact that it is a handgun not matter?

I know long guns can be done face to face but I thought handguns were different.

[The Rabbi]

Nope, no difference.

In my pre-FFL days I bought and sold handguns in parking lots over car hoods. I loved it. Nothing illegal.

But I would look for that to be the next area of "gun control"--all resales must go through an FFL. And I think the Dealers association is the one pushing it. fwiw, I am personally opposed to any such scheme, just on principle.

[Mike.357]

Thanks for the input Bill, I will pass the info along.

It is also information I might put to use too!

[TGO David]

Though no FFL involvement is necessary, I would strongly encourage all of you to use a form like the one here to document the transaction for your own protection. Should that firearm later be involved in a crime and tracked back to you by the serial number, you will be able to supply the police with the contact information (or at least identity) of the buyer.

It's just a good way to cover your butt.

[The Rabbi]

A person presenting me with that bill of sale would be told to get lost in short order.

I think a simple BOS with the gun's make, model, caliber and serial number noted would suffice.

fwiw, I took in a gun from a customer that turned out to be stolen. I had suspected as much when the customer (not my brightest) told me he had bought it out of the Traders Post from a guy who had a bunch of guns in his house to sell. Metro came and picked it up and asked about the customer. I supplied his name and contact info. That was the last anyone heard. I checked with the customer and he told me they had never contacted him about it.

People are consistent. A guy with a clean record and a job isn't likely to go out and steal a gun or commit a crime. And Metro is too busy to go weed out the 1 case in a thousand where that might happen.

[saintsfanbrian]

I recently made a trade with another forum member in the McAllisters parking lot in Germantown. I made out a simple form that on this day I traded one Springfield Armory Model 1911 Serial number XXXXXXX for One Springfield Armory model XD-9 Serial number XXXXXXX to Im-Neero.

I made two copies. I signed both, he signed both. We both asked each other the standards questions from the 4473 form. I keep a copy, he keeps a copy. That way, should there ever be an issue, the cops will know where to go if they need to.

[TGO David]

A person presenting me with that bill of sale would be told to get lost in short order.

No offense, but if you met me to buy a handgun and subsequently told me to "get lost" when I presented you with that form, I'd tell you to piss up a burning rope for wasting my time. Then I'd come back here and make a giant post about how you refused to sign something that anyone without a shady background should have had no problem signing.

[Marswolf]

One reason to do personal buys is avoid traceability.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

No offense, but if you met me to buy a handgun and subsequently told me to "get lost" when I presented you with that form, I'd tell you to piss up a burning rope for wasting my time. Then I'd come back here and make a giant post about how you refused to sign something that anyone without a shady background should have had no problem signing.

I definitely agree with this. If you aren't willing to sign a form, that you would otherwise be required to sign at an FFL, then you aren't getting my firearm... and I would definitely warn others about making transactions with you. Nothing on that "form" is beyond reason or out of the ordinary, and it safegaurds my name and liability that's associated with that firearm. Any objection to that form is pure ignorance.

[Smith]

I don't ask for bill of sales from garage sales, why would I need it for any other personal transaction of this realm? Are you guys insinuating that guns are more dangerous or criminally inclined than other items?

[Guest Verbal Kint]

I don't ask for bill of sales from garage sales, why would I need it for any other personal transaction of this realm? Are you guys insinuating that guns are more dangerous or criminally inclined than other items?

Something tells me that a tiffany lamp and a .357 revolver don't fit into the same liability category and importance of documented ownership. As far as firearms... regardless of where it's purchased, there should be proper records kept, of both the seller and buyer.

[Guest bkelm18]

I don't ask for bill of sales from garage sales, why would I need it for any other personal transaction of this realm? Are you guys insinuating that guns are more dangerous or criminally inclined than other items?

Well you are much more likely to be killed by a handgun wielding criminal than a lawnmower wielding criminal....

[molonlabetn]

Well you are much more likely to be killed by a handgun wielding criminal than a lawnmower wielding criminal....

Only because the criminal is more likely to choose to use a firearm, not because the firearm is the only one which can cause harm or death.

If I could conceal a lawnmower, it would probably make a pretty decent SD weapon.

Now there's a sight... picture Bruce Campbell with a chain-saw on one arm, and a lawn-mower deck affixed to the other, like a shield.

[Smith]

Only because the criminal is more likely to choose to use a firearm, not because the firearm is the only one which can cause harm or death.

If I could conceal a lawnmower, it would probably make a pretty decent SD weapon.

Now there's a sight... picture Bruce Campbell with a chain-saw on one arm, and a lawn-mower deck affixed to the other, like a shield.

Or maybe like a "mentally handicapped" Billy Bob Thornton wielding a lawn mower blade muttering uhhuh...

In response to "liability" issues, aren't those the same arguments for gun control? Alcohol kills more people than anything else and you don't have to have a bill of sale for that.

[The Rabbi]

No offense, but if you met me to buy a handgun and subsequently told me to "get lost" when I presented you with that form, I'd tell you to piss up a burning rope for wasting my time. Then I'd come back here and make a giant post about how you refused to sign something that anyone without a shady background should have had no problem signing.

I'd say you were wasting my time. There is no requirement in law for such a form. It is also idiotic: anyone who would be ineligible isn't going to have scruples about lying on the form. Now you can make the same case for the 4473. The difference is that lying on the 4473 is a federal felony offense and will be prosecuted as such given the right circumstances. Lying on some mickey-mouse form isn't. The seller, not being required to ask such information or provide proof, isn't any better protected for having the form.

As for "no one without a shady background would have a problem", how about if I send the cops to search your house? Daily. If you aren't shady then you shouldn't have a problem with that.

[TGO David]

IAs for "no one without a shady background would have a problem", how about if I send the cops to search your house? Daily. If you aren't shady then you shouldn't have a problem with that.

Typical straw-man argument from you, Rabbi. I'm not going to get sucked into it like others have.

I could issue a similar challenge to you and insist that I want to buy one of the firearms in your store from you, privately, over the hood of a car somewhere per the outline you provided in your previous post. I'm sure you would be just as willing to do that as I would be willing to allow someone to violate my 4th Amendment rights.

[The Rabbi]

Typical straw-man argument from you, Rabbi. I'm not going to get sucked into it like others have.

I could issue a similar challenge to you and insist that I want to buy one of the firearms in your store from you, privately, over the hood of a car somewhere per the outline you provided in your previous post. I'm sure you would be just as willing to do that as I would be willing to allow someone to violate my 4th Amendment rights.

Huh? Did you read the definition of straw man?

Your argument was that no one with anything to hide should have a problem answering the questions on the mickey mouse form.

I queried that if you didnt have anything to hide then you would be OK with daily police searches of your house. That very argument, "an honest man has nothing to hide" has been used frequently to justify intrusive searches and questions of one kind or another. Go rent the movie The Front sometime to see what I mean.

Nothing straw man here. You aren't going to consent to police searches and I'm not going to answer mickey mouse questions on a made up form. Both for the same reason.

If you requested an off-the books purchase of a store gun I would decline as that is illegal. What made you think I engage or would be willing to engage in illegal behavior?

[TGO David]

And your reply was an attempt to obfuscate the issue at hand by making a HUGE leap into 4th Amendment Rights. Thus it was very much so a strawman argument.

Thank you, come again.

[The Rabbi]

And your reply was an attempt to obfuscate the issue at hand by making a HUGE leap into 4th Amendment Rights. Thus it was very much so a strawman argument.

Thank you, come again.

Intrusion is intrusion, whether by the gov't or by an individual.

[TGO David]

Intrusion is intrusion, whether by the gov't or by an individual.

I agree 100% but my personal stance is that if someone refuses to fill out the transfer form, then I'm going to refuse to sell the firearm to them. I also take time to explain to the buyer that it benefits them as well since I give them an exact copy of the form that they could use to show the police where they purchased the firearm if a question ever arose.

I'm not trying to be a dick about it. I just insist on mutual CYA when I do a private sale of a firearm. It strikes me as being the socially responsible thing to do.

[Mike.357]

Seems to me that Rabbi is right here.

All one has to do is ask the buyer if they are prohibited from purchasing a firearm. From that point on it is up to the buyer to tell the truth. I suppose if you want to you could take down the buyers name and hometown. More than likely a self written receipt kept

by the seller stating the date, type of weapon, serial number and to whom it was sold would suffice legally to CYA if needed. Even if you sold a gun that later turned up used in a crime the man still has to prove that you were the criminal using the gun.

I doubt I would fill out a sellers Q and A form either.