Critique of post WWII 1911 A1.

[The Rabbi]

Uh, maybe ours?

A blinding flash of the obvious. Clearly I meant apart from the U.S.

[TGO David]

I have new signature material thanks to this thread.

[Marswolf]

.... ....

[Mark@Sea]

Argentines liked the 1911 so much that they built their own factory, with Colt techs, making the Sistema 1911 under license.

Dang fine pistol, too.

What, exactly, makes the 1911 obsolete?

Lower round count? (slimmer grip makes better concealed carry, for me - YMMV)

Steel vs plastic construction? Hmm... Had a plastic pistol when I was 6. The dog ate it. Don't need another one.

The weight, right? Because, of course, lighter pistols have less felt recoil - wait a minute....

Ease of construction. Well, you got me there. Kind of like how a VW was easier to build than a Corvette - obviously the VW is the better auto.

Must be the .45 cartridge; Everyone knows that smaller faster bullets are better than larger slower bullets, right? Except the USMC, of course, but what else would you expect from characters like them?

[Rightwinger]

another classic thread

[The Rabbi]

Ease of construction. Well, you got me there. Kind of like how a VW was easier to build than a Corvette - obviously the VW is the better auto.

Reliable, cheap to operate, easy to fix, can carry the whole family (my father had several and went on trips with my mother, two older brothers, and me). Yep, the VW is definitely better than the Corvette.

I forgot about the Argentines. Easy to do.

[Mark@Sea]

Likewise the Norwegians, the Spanish, the South Koreans, the Brits during both world wars, and oh yeah, the Greeks. Easy to forget, buncha wussies.

I owned a bug once myself. It was simple to fix - a high point, in my estimation, as I spent a lot of time doing just that. A crescent wrench and a hammer were definitely required accessories. Other than that, it was a cheap car well suited to mass marketing. Made some good memories, that car. Glad to get it when I got it, glad to see it go when I got rid of it. Given a choice between an early 'vette (before they went plastic ) and a VW, I'd certainly go with the...

Well, you know.

[The Rabbi]

And all of them prior to WW2, when choice in sidearms was pretty limited. Proves nothing.

As for the VW, I've owned a bug and a Karmann Ghia. Reliable as hammers, never a problem.

Never owned a Corvette mainly because they are sold to ex-frat boy types who dont know much about cars, based almost solely on their reputation from years past when there wasnt much choice in that category.

Kinda like 1911s.....

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Jews owning German cars? Lies! Blasphemy!

[Mark@Sea]

Weren't many South Koreans prior to WWII, the Greek Hellenic Army's current issue pistol is the 1911A1, FBI's HRT current issue pistol is the 1911A1, the spanish Modelo 9 was...

Never mind. As you say, proves nothing. And I certainly believe you didn't buy a vette because you were afraid you'd be mistaken for an "ex frat boy". That has been one of my major worries in life as well!

[The Rabbi]

Jews owning German cars? Lies! Blasphemy!

Hey, I love Germans. My kids all have German names. My father in law was German--Jewish, of course.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Hey, I love Germans. My kids all have German names. My father in law was German--Jewish, of course.

One of my best friends, while I was stationed in Germany, was an Italian Jew that spoke German. He was a funny, and mixed up, guy. Hated speaking German or acknowledging that he knew any of the language, but would purposely screw with the Bundeswehr that were guarding our gates when they'd talk trash about us, not thinking that any of us could understand them.

Good times.

[towerclimber37]

Browning always tried to perfect his designs.

thats why the U.S military still uses the M2 .50 Machine gun today. because his designs were soooo shoddy.

likewise his pistol designs...the belgians hated it so much they've been making the hi powers with very little change for oh quite a while now.

yep. that man CLEARLY didn't know what he was doing. never should have been in this business to begin with.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[The Rabbi]

but he perfected it, and chambered it in the perfect caliber for killing folks.

His trigger mechanism has been imitated moreso than any other automatic handgun in the world.

I'm still waiting for some kind of evidence--anything--to back up this statement.

Instead of demonstrating how "perfect" the 1911 is, you default to the M2 BMG and the Hi-Power. Next you'll be proclaiming the perfection of the Auto5.

[Guest Disney]

I'm still waiting for some kind of evidence--anything--to back up this statement.

Instead of demonstrating how "perfect" the 1911 is, you default to the M2 BMG and the Hi-Power. Next you'll be proclaiming the perfection of the Auto5.

Cause I said so! 1911 is perfect.

/thread.

[towerclimber37]

I'm still waiting for some kind of evidence--anything--to back up this statement.

Instead of demonstrating how "perfect" the 1911 is, you default to the M2 BMG and the Hi-Power. Next you'll be proclaiming the perfection of the Auto5.

well..I'd say that its pretty dang perfect simply because of its longevity of service..but since you can't grasp that most of the free world either a. still uses the 1911 or has a variation of it..whats the point?

I'd say that you'll find a variation of the 1911's trigger mechanism, grip safeties, or recoil mechanism on just about every automatic that you take apart.

imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

JMB did it best and though he wasn't first..he's the most prolific. His design has been used more than any other. if you can't accept that..then I feel bad for you.

I mean..sheesh. what does it take? a hammer?

as for the auto5.... yah..its a horrible shotgun. no good whatsoever..thats why you can find them around still, that were made in the 1910's 20's and 30's.

Ole JMB didn't build them to be durable...didn't build them to be accurate nor did he design them to function flawlessly...that was all devine inspiration. His middle name IS Moses, after all!

[TGO David]

I'd say that you'll find a variation of the 1911's trigger mechanism

Unfortunately, no... not many use JMB's 1911 trigger design. I wish more did. Pressing straight back into the sear release rather than having a trigger that pivots at a point above the finger is one of the things that makes the 1911 kick so much ass.

There aren't many people who will argue that the 1911 has one of the best triggers ever.

[The Rabbi]

well..I'd say that its pretty dang perfect simply because of its longevity of service..but since you can't grasp that most of the free world either a. still uses the 1911 or has a variation of it..whats the point?

I'd say that you'll find a variation of the 1911's trigger mechanism, grip safeties, or recoil mechanism on just about every automatic that you take apart.

imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

JMB did it best and though he wasn't first..he's the most prolific. His design has been used more than any other. if you can't accept that..then I feel bad for you.

I mean..sheesh. what does it take? a hammer?

Have you visited a gun shop in the last, oh, 75 years?

The free world does not use some variation of the 1911. Virtually every European country uses the Beretta, the Glock, the SIG, or the CZ for either military or police or both. Israel uses the Glock and SIG.

From Wiki:

The U.S. military, French military, and Italian military have each chosen variants of the Beretta 92. The British military, the Canadian military and the U.S. Navy SEALs have chosen the SIG P226. The Austrian, Finnish, and Norwegian military have chosen the Glock 17.

Not one of the those pistols has a grip safety. Not one is single action. Not one is single stack and not one is a .45acp. But other than being completely different from the 1911 in construction, caliber, action, method of operation, and capacity, yes they are all derived from the 1911.:rolleyes:

Longevity of service? The 1911 was dropped following WW2 by everyone who used it except the U.S. And they didnt purchase any new ones. People in the military in 1980 told me about using WW2 issue guns that were loose and clanking from wear.

Yes, the pistol lives on in a very few areas like the FBI's HRT or some SWAT teams. It remains probably the most popular civilian design.

But that hardly equates to "perfection".

[Mark@Sea]

Rabbi, whats' wrong with it? Is it because it is steel? Too heavy? Too few rounds in the mag? Doesn't have a "trigger safety"? Single Action? Or is it because it is about the most popular design on the planet nearly 100 years after it was designed, and you want to argue with the world?

And look - it is, as far as I know, still standard issue in a couple of militaries (see my previous post), and a large percentage of our own wish we still issued it as a matter of course.

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi, whats' wrong with it? Is it because it is steel? Too heavy? Too few rounds in the mag? Doesn't have a "trigger safety"? Single Action? Or is it because it is about the most popular design on the planet nearly 100 years after it was designed, and you want to argue with the world?

And look - it is, as far as I know, still standard issue in a couple of militaries (see my previous post), and a large percentage of our own wish we still issued it as a matter of course.

There's nothing wrong with it. All of what you say is true. But that is far far different from saying it is the perfection of pistol design or that every modern pistol is descended from it, claims that have been made but not backed up on this very thread and elsewhere.

[molonlabetn]

The perfect pistol hasn't been built yet... and when it finally is built, noone will be able to afford it, even if it isn't banned.

The closest thing to perfection anyone could ask for is a handgun which is in one's hand when we need it, works properly, and has enough ammunition. I don't think any one type or make which currently exists has that market cornered...

But, the 1911 has been around filling that role for nearly a century... that's a pretty good track record for a pistol (unbeaten perhaps...)

[towerclimber37]

There's nothing wrong with it. All of what you say is true. But that is far far different from saying it is the perfection of pistol design or that every modern pistol is descended from it, claims that have been made but not backed up on this very thread and elsewhere.

does it have a slide? does it have a handle that accepts ammunition? does it have a barrel and trigger assembly?

who here knew that Joseph Laumann invented the automatic pistol? who here knew the name browning?

can you name 2 browning designs off the top of your head? can you name more than 1 design by joseph laughmann, even with research?

http://www.northstar.k12.ak.us/schools/ryn/projects/inventors/browning/browning.html

and this was from an alaskan school kid! you're telling me he knows more than you??

LOL!!!!

I will concede that it's not the perfect firearm..and Eddie is right..that one hasn't been built yet....but the 1911 has been in that role for far longer than any other pistol I can think of.

[TGO David]

I like lamp.

[The Rabbi]

does it have a slide? does it have a handle that accepts ammunition? does it have a barrel and trigger assembly?

who here knew that Joseph Laumann invented the automatic pistol? who here knew the name browning?

can you name 2 browning designs off the top of your head? can you name more than 1 design by joseph laughmann, even with research?

http://www.northstar.k12.ak.us/schools/ryn/projects/inventors/browning/browning.html

and this was from an alaskan school kid! you're telling me he knows more than you??

LOL!!!!

I will concede that it's not the perfect firearm..and Eddie is right..that one hasn't been built yet....but the 1911 has been in that role for far longer than any other pistol I can think of.

I would react to this but you've proven yourself incapable of defending your position. Not that it is defensible.

I will readily concede that the 1911 remains an enduring favorite, even while it's been superceded in common usage among professionals who use a pistol every day.

People like the gun and it works for them. That's all that matters.

[The Rabbi]

But, the 1911 has been around filling that role for nearly a century... that's a pretty good track record for a pistol (unbeaten perhaps...)

The Smith Model 10 has been around in its various forms, mostly unchanged, since 1899. It is still current production at Smith and still used by police departments (OK, in Luxembourg). I wouldn't say that makes it perfection or that every gun since then is descended from it.