Critique of post WWII 1911 A1.

[Guest Disney]

This was received via email in regards to purchasing this guys RIA 1911.... What do you think??

I dont want you to take this wrong. We are just talking and maybe exchanging ideas.With my past military experience and the years I served. I have also received a certificate of training for completion of an 80 hr course in small arms school. Thats take down and replacement of parts,1911 A1s up to .50 cal MG.

I think I can well speak on a .45 A1. Anything Colt made after WW2 was in my opinion inferior to the prior guns. Also lost their contract on the M-16 for Quality control. The Rock Island is the closest thing to military spec on the market to date. I have read numerious reviews. I have owned this one since I was fortunate enought to trade for it.

The reason for the 1911 was realiability and to knock the bad guy back jumping in the trench with you bayonet first. Anything else made in .45 autos since, no matter what the name is it just another version or attempt to improve on the best .45 auto ever produced. For realibility. It aint all that pretty but yet to date none has reached the mark without exact copy of the gun. It dont have the lawyer saftey like most have. Even the Kimber. A lot of things have been said about the Rock. Cast slides ect.. Which is untrue. Its like an extruded piece of steel thats then milled down to GI standards. They say they are not accurate. However thats been disproved in competition with even the high dollar Kimbers ect. if you ever own one and shoot it. You will have to admit its realiable and accurate.

Then you will join the ranks of many that thought it had to cost a fortune to be realiable and accurate.I have heard of 5000 round through one and no problems. Can that be said for a Kimber or the likes? Especially the post war Colts. The gunsmith shops are full of Colts, Kimbers ect for repair. Go find a rock in for anything other than a part you can replace yourself if you know how to dismantle one with merely a screwdriver and a small finishing nail. Can that be done with all the other autos that have tried to improve on something that has been prove the best ever?

Remember its not a target gun. Its a self defence gun. Target guns dont need to be realiable. Which they are not.If this gun was to move production to the USA it would cost more than a Colt and people would be elated to buy them. Its just the dang, mine cost more so its got to be better. What can I say to justify buying mine for way more money. Remember gun store owners will say anything to sell the highest price gun. They make more money. Search the reviews on this gun. Dont take my word alone on it.

In conclusion I have another on the way and I was just looking for a hunting pistol to trade for at this time. I didnt want to spend the money with Xmas this close. I will aslo buy another after Xmas if I trade this one. One to shoot. One for protection. With the modifications to this gun, such as beaver tail saftey. Stainless take down pin, grips and the Wilson Mags, and $339 lazermax installed. Without tax it would cost you $873. If I sold it I would ask $650.$425 without laser. I think thats fair. I dont desire any other .45 auto as you can tell. Once sold always sold. Then this is my opinion and everyone has one.

I dont blame you for trying to get one. They are great guns period. You wont be sorry.Would I bet my life its realiable and accurate? You bet.

Also get a gun with a higher number. You get better mags. RIA 900,000 up serial number. There have been some improvements in the clips they use. I just got Wilson to be sure.

What say you? Nutcase or not?

* I added the space where I thought it was needed. It was originally in one big paragraph that I couldn't read.....

[Guest Verbal Kint]

RIA makes great 1911's, based on every review I've seen and the limited number I've held (but never had the opportunity to shoot)... especially for the price you can buy them for... but they're not any better than any of the other 1911 contenders out there. This guy obviously thinks highly of his Rock Island, which is cool... take pride in your firearm... but it's to the point, IMO, that he's conceited. I've never seen RIA compared to the "higher end" 1911's (Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, Les Baer, etc) but rather as a good, reliable, cheap, entry-level 1911.

He's right about the history, purpose, and reliability of the 1911, though... it was a work horse used in WWI, WWII, Korean War, Vietnam War, Iraq, and Afghanistan... and is still in use by many military teams and LEO organizations. It's design has changed very little in the almost 100 years of production, and has been copied by almost every firearms manufacturer out there. Aside from some models requiring a take-down tool (piece of metal resembling an allen wrench -- for the compact models) every current 1911 follows the same design and strips down the same way.

I'd have to disagree on his comment that every 1911, other than that graced with the "Rock Island Armory" name, spends all their time in smith shops. That simply goes back to the "My 1911 is better than your 1911" story. Any and all guns have problems... RIA isn't exempt from this.

Cliffnotes: I think the guy thinks highly of his RIA 1911... but too much so. However, they are really good guns, for the price.

[Guest Disney]

The reason he typed out that book is because I had said that I would like a low end 1911 so I could shoot more without wearing out my Kimber.

the man LOVES his RIA 1911!!!

[Mike.357]

I have and RIA and I would rate it as fair. Maybe I just did not get a great one.

I have failure to go to battery, fail to feed and every once in a while the slide locks back in mid magazine. I would say on average it does something it should not do once in every hundred rounds.

I am also not a big fan of the Wilson 8 round magazine. 9 out of ten times when the gun fails to do something it is when I am using the Wilson mag. The Novaks 8 rd. mag that came with it seems to work better.

There are enough rounds through this handgun that break in is not the issue. I am debating returning it to Armscore to see what they can do to fix it. Either that or I should pick up a stronger spring.

Also I would not pay 425.00 for it. NIB everywhere I have seen it is 380.00 to 400.00.

On the plus side it is fun to shoot. I prefer the GI look to it. It is simple to field strip.

And FWIW I have heard of many high dollar 1911's that have issues like my less expensive one does. I think it is luck of the draw on any 1911 as to reliability.

Do I wish it worked 100%? Well of course. But I am still happy I bought it and it ought to last my lifetime and a couple of generations afterwords.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

The reason he typed out that book is because I had said that I would like a low end 1911 so I could shoot more without wearing out my Kimber.

the man LOVES his RIA 1911!!!

Definitely sounds like it.

I don't think you can go wrong with the RIA for what you're wanting it for. Should be a really dependable, fun, nice shooting 1911. And a good price tag to go with it... as long as you can pry it out of his clutches. Might want to don some rubber gloves and hose it down with a liberal amount of GunScrubber though... he probably sleeps with it... in between his... um... pillows.

Also I would not pay 425.00 for it. NIB everywhere I have seen it is 380.00 to 400.00.

...

And FWIW I have heard of many high dollar 1911's that have issues like my less expensive one does. I think it is luck of the draw on any 1911 as to reliability.

+1

[Guest bkelm18]

My RIA is a damn fine pistol. Has been utterly reliable. I carry it on my hip everyday. Very good 1911 for the price. I've never owned much less shot a SA or a Kimber, so I can't attest to their reliability, but I've had no problems out of my Rock and wouldn't hesitate to own another.

[Marswolf]

Well, I really like the Rock Island too. But probably not as much as this guy.

As far as the reliability of the military M1911s, I haven't witnessed that. They earned the name jam-o-matic. Pretty much all of the more modern 1911s are more reliable in my experience. That's not to say that the military pistols could not be made to function well. But you did have to be a bit more vigilant in getting the lubrication right.

[Guest gcrookston]

Seemed like he was not only bashing RIA but just about any post 1945 1911 (my eyes started glaze over there towards the end, so I confess I didn't finish reading all of it.).

I've owned and shot a variety of 1911's for 10s of thousands of rounds over 30 years.

This is what my experience tells me: I think the finest 1911 ever made was the pre 1975 Series 70 GCNM. Everything since has either been down hill or a fairly unremarkable "slight" improvement or a challenging step backward.

The design has it's flaws. I won't go into them here, but this is an excellent article: http://outlands.tripod.com/armory/1911.htm (much of it lifted off of other articles over the years).

Compensating for the flaws in the design has become a major concern of owners for the last 60 years. Great resource here: http://www.m1911.org/full_technic.htm

Is it the best designed pistol to handle the .45 acp today? Not by a long shot... Here are 2 others I would prefer to have in my hand in a critical situation: Sig P220 or HK USP Tactical.

I like my two current 1911s, a 1967 GCNM and a 2007 PT1911. I think they are great. This is the fewest number of 1911's I've had in a long time. I usually like to have 4 or 5 around... But the Tactical is the one I keep handy.

[The Rabbi]

I like to say the gun was designed to be built a certain way and used a certain way. The further you get from that, the less good it becomes.

The gun was designed to be made from machined steel pieces hand fitted by trained technicians. Its purpose was to propel .45acp ball ammunition and hit a man-sized target at 50 yards or less with good reliability. Compared to what was available at the time it was an innovation.

But if the 1911 had never been invented and someone came out with the design today it would be relegated to the ranks of Lorcin and Raven.

[Guest Mugster]

A full size 1911 is a pretty good pistol, regardless of who makes it with a little break-in and possibly some tuning, imo.

You can gold plate a shovel, but it'll still only dig a hole for you, and thats about what a pistol is, a tool with some moving parts.

I think if performance is the bottom line (accuracy and feeding), you send whatever pistol you get to the guys at bar-sto and drop about $800-900 on a barrel, new trigger system, and sights of your choice...and you tell them what you are setting the pistol up to do. And that includes any brand from what I've seen. You get back a pistol that you can scope and fire pretty good groups at 100 yards off the bench with the right ammo.

I think you can spend a few bucks over the price of a RIA and get a little better accuracy off the shelf. You can definitely buy a better finish on your pistol. You can't buy reliability in a 1911, though. Either your pistol will run well or it won't, imo, and it may take a 1911 smith to sort it out. I guess if you get unlucky with one, you can try to send it back to whoever made it, but they are the ones that broke it in the first place. So whatever quality control checks they had in place already failed. You're usually better off fixing any problem you run into with higher quality aftermarket parts, and paying a smith to do the job right if you aren't mechanically inclined.

The service life is going to be about the same on any brand too I think. Bout 150,000 rounds was the original military estimate to possible major component failure. I'll buy that.

[Guest gcrookston]

Rabbi,

You make an interesting supposition. Browning had a true revolutionary impact on gun design. As you point out, in it's place, in its day, it did exactly what it was intended to do. It was, at the time, cutting edge.

Browning took what was good about a design and would use it as a basis for subsequent weapons. The 1911 didn't just fall into his lap that year. The line started with the 1905, progressed to the 1907 and continued through numerous prototypes until it's adoption in 1911. Much of what went into the 1911, we also see in the earlier 1903, 1908, 1910 designs. By the time he designed the Hipower in the 1920's, he'd solved many of the problems inherent in the 1911 and threw in a double stacked magazine to boot.

Many guns today owe portions of their design to what browning developed nearly 100 years ago...

And I agree with you, it's been surpassed many times by better guns over the years and those have been built upon and surpassed in a continuing evolutionary design process.

But it's always fun to dust off and shoot an old gun, just as it is to drive an antique car or vintage motorcycle.

Recreating them is okay, too. For those that want one and can't afford an original (there is even a company making HD Knucklehead Engines - retro! they even come complete with the same top-end cooling and lubrication issues the originals had in the 1940's). I think people should know that the complaints we hear about the new batch of 1911s out there are the same complaints around 90 years ago...

[MexicanDragon]

Just my two cents, but the only two guns I've owned were a High Standard 1911 GI spec (same as the RIA), and a Les Baer Xtreme Tactical (specs/pics are around here somewhere). The Baer is ridiculously accurate, but the HS wasn't bad at all. I let someone shoot it who was a former marine range master (who carried a mil-spec colt, so he knew the medium well). He put a 5 shot group 2 handed @ 20 or 25 yards (the furthest mark at the Prentice Cooper pistol range). Three of those were grouped the size of a thumbnail.

I can't speak for it's long term reliability, as I only put about 400 rounds through it before I sold it to help with the LB, but I loved every minute of going to the range and shooting it. It was the first handgun I ever shot, and my second trip to the range I was able to put 5 of 7 rounds in the head of an unfortunate silhouette at 23 yards.

There was a definate difference in the feel of the entry level and the nice semi-custom, but each felt "right" to me, in their own ways. BTW, my HS had different grips than the wooden ones on the RIA... I'd probably change 'em out if I were you (mine were standard black double diamond checkered ones).

I noticed this particular one has an aftermarket beavertail safety along with a couple other mods and an undisclosed amount of wilson mags. Does it come with the original parts as well? Who made the beavertail? Being a fairly inexperienced shooter, I tended to have a bit of the hammer bite after a session.

The price does seem a bit high, just depends on the extras, and what you already have mag wise layin' in a drawer (if any). I'm sure you've looked at the RIA Tactical as well. It very well may be the way to go on this one, IMO.

**BRENT**

[Marswolf]

I'm sometimes amused that folks who damn the high price of premium modern handguns gladly pay big bucks for a 1911.

I like 1911s. I like to see what can be done with an old design and I like to tweak them myself. I've sometimes said that the 1911 is the quintessential American handgun and every American should own one at some time in his life. But I'm not going to use one for carry purposes.

[towerclimber37]

But if the 1911 had never been invented and someone came out with the design today it would be relegated to the ranks of Lorcin and Raven.

hmmm I disagree. I have a wonderful hi power mk III that I wouldn't part with for any price. Likewise, most all automatic pistols, even the ones made by that retard Gaston, are built upon the basic principles that JMB incorporated into his pistols.

my browning was made in 1986 and has all original parts...its still super accurate and out of the thousands of rounds I've fired (all sorts of ammo) I've never had a failure. accuracy is well within parameters of a fine shooting pistol!

[Marswolf]

Tower, I was looking for a High Power when I bought my 92SB. My brother had a High Power and I thought it was a neat handgun. I still think so.

[The Rabbi]

hmmm I disagree. I have a wonderful hi power mk III that I wouldn't part with for any price. Likewise, most all automatic pistols, even the ones made by that retard Gaston, are built upon the basic principles that JMB incorporated into his pistols.

my browning was made in 1986 and has all original parts...its still super accurate and out of the thousands of rounds I've fired (all sorts of ammo) I've never had a failure. accuracy is well within parameters of a fine shooting pistol!

A Hi Power is not a 1911. Not particularly close even. But they are a hard sell today and for some reason just not that popular. Great guns though.

What principles have been incorporated into modern pistols that were first found in the 1911?

[Im Neero]

Rabbi. Do you ever drink the koolaid?

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi. Do you ever drink the koolaid?

No. No hashgacha.

[Im Neero]

I looked up hashgacha all over the place and came up empty other than a site that says it's vital for properly canning artichokes. What's it mean?

[The Rabbi]

Kosher supervision. And I'd dispute whether canned artichokes really need it.

[Joseg]

I've got two 1911s one that is the RIA Govt and a SA Ultra Compact, to be honest, I prefer to shoot my RIA a lot more, it might be cheap, made overseas, but it goes bang everytime I pull the trigger. RIAs to me is like an entry gun that is well made, is not as sloppy (sorry for not using the gun term) as some of the other 1911s I have looked at.

But I see handguns as a tool, an extension of your body, it doesn't mean a thing if you don't probably know how to put rounds on target. So if you have a 200 dollar pistol to a 2500 dollar safe queen/high end, if you can't place rounds on the target, it won't mean a thing..

[DaveTN]

Likewise, most all automatic pistols, even the ones made by that retard Gaston, are built upon the basic principles that JMB incorporated into his pistols.

[towerclimber37]

A Hi Power is not a 1911. Not particularly close even. But they are a hard sell today and for some reason just not that popular. Great guns though.

What principles have been incorporated into modern pistols that were first found in the 1911?

It wasn't the FIRST to incorporate a magazine in the handgrip..that was the borchardt (spelling?) in around 1892. he wasn't even the first person to MAKE an automatic pistol. That was Joseph Laumann.

but he perfected it, and chambered it in the perfect caliber for killing folks.

His trigger mechanism has been imitated moreso than any other automatic handgun in the world.

how do I know this? well.. how many military's have successfully used it to conclude conflicts? how many military's have carried a laumann automatic pistol?

are YOU aware of the borchardt pistol? is it as well known as the 1911?

oh..and when you google "the first automatic pistol" you'll see a picture of one of brownings' pistols.

Now! open up a beretta 92f and then do the same with a browning hi-power.

I can guarantee that if the 92 f were shooting the slower/less pressure .45 it would look alot more like a 1911. The 1911 is one of if not THE most copied pistol in the world, bar none.

you're just mad that it doesn't have a cylinder.

the glock is proof positive that if some idiot builds an idiot proof pistol, some OTHER idiot will just have to go shoot himself to prove that he was wrong...

owners of 1911's on the other hand..are fine cultured folks with good sense, keen wit and sharp eyes.

btw, you wouldn't have a line on some of those s.a. browning m95's would you? I want to get one and have Coal Creek cut it down...they look awesome and are lots more concealable!

[The Rabbi]

Do you have a clue as to what you are posting?

Even Browning didnt think the 1911 was perfection. He said the Hi Power corrected the problems of the 1911. I personally don't know what he meant.

I cannot think of a single military that ever adopted the 1911 into widespread use. The Hi Power, otoh, was adopted all over Europe and Canada.

What features of the 1911 have been copied elsewhere? I can't think of any. I can't think of any single-action pistols (other than the CZ 52) that have been designed post WW2 for that matter. Virtually all of them are double/single action, and copy the pattern of the Walther P1. If they aren't DA/SA then they are DAO and probably copy the old Colt hammerless design.

So I am still waiting to hear how Browning "perfected" the pistol in the 1911 and what features were universally adopted after him.

[Marswolf]

I cannot think of a single military that ever adopted the 1911 into widespread use.

Uh, maybe ours?