OPEN CARRY

[mikegideon]

I don't care for his views, either. But he is still entitled to them, isn't he? He's also entitled to speak, write and publish them as well. Just like some of the members here are entitled to speak out against OC, and others are entitled to speak out in favor of OC.

Mike, I haven't been able to find a leather holster to work with my larger carry guns. I happened across a Fobus paddle holster and it works great for CC'ing my PT-92. It would work great for a 1911, too, since it is a little shorter than the 92.

Get your wallet ready. I bought the Galco Concealable pancake holster and belt. In stock at Midway I'm not a total larda$$, but I'm not skinny enough to carry IWB.

Galco Concealable Belt Holster Right Hand 1911 Government Leather Black - MidwayUSA

Also ordered one for my CZ P01

[Guest Jamie]

I googled zumbo and read some of his stuff. He sounds like an idgit.

Jim Zumbo has become the poster child for gun owners who are willing to sacrifice other gun owners in order to keep what they personally want or want to do.

He's also become a living example of how badly that mentality can cost a person.

This would seem to be a lesson lost on many people.

J.

[JayC]

So, how does it make any sense to OC when you KNOW you are probably going to cause a negative reaction of some type to someone who sees you?

Because it's not my job to make sure everybody else doesn't have a negative reaction in life....

Just like I can place a political bumper sticker on my car, wear an American Flag pin, or place a yellow ribbon around my tree to show support for our troops... All of these things cause a 'negative reaction' in some people... So we shouldn't do those things either?

There are lots of things people do, and say that cause me to be uncomfortable, but as long as they don't cause me harm it's my problem to deal with not theirs. Call me a jerk, but my carrying to protect myself trumps their hurt feelings every day of the week. (Again, I agree CC is best, but OC is better than going unarmed.)

And the truth is that to a certain extent a large number of people OC'ing in public day after day would have a positive effect on the general populations view of hand gun carry.

To give you a perfect example, the number of homosexuals in TN is about the same as the number of hand gun carry permit holders in TN... 40 years ago, 2 guys walking down the street would have caused a lot of people a 'negative reaction' or worse... Today we might as well be the San Fransisco of the south here in Nashville... yet anybody who has a 'negative reaction' is often belittled because what they're doing doesn't hurt you. It's causing an evolution in the minds of the public, the more times we're exposed to something and nothing bad happens the more we become numb to it.

Using some of the far lefts own tactics isn't a bad thing.

[Guest Jamie]

Thanks. It's just as I thought, someone with a dissenting opinion. I guess where the 2A is concerned, the 1A doesn't apply. That's just sad that people get beat on for having a differing opinion.

You're all worried about people OCing causing businesses to post "no guns allowed" signs, or laws to become more restrictive, but you don't have an issue with someone who makes (made?) a living writing about guns and hunting handing Handgun Control Inc. and our government a pre-packaged argument for banning certain firearms, based on their appearance alone??? Especially in light of that exact type of ban already having been put in place once already???

I guess that old saying about people getting the government and laws that they deserve is true...

J.

[mikegideon]

Homos don't have the power to reach across the room and kill you. I see your point, but...

[mcurrier]

Well, since nothing is harder to open than a closed mind, I'll leave you to your particular beliefs.

Exactly. So I leave you to yours. You must be right and I must be wrong.

You are implying, or even saying, that an undrawn weapon is able to defeat an already drawn weapon, and saying it in such a manner as to take a position that that is the case the majority of the time. While I and others will concede that it may turn out that way in the very miniscule percentage of cases, I believe that most of us would agree that in say roughly 98% of cases in that scenario, the already drawn weapon is most assuredly going to be the winner.

So I'm not sure how closed my mind is or about your need to convince me that I'm wrong and that a person placed in that situation of being on the defensive side with an undrawn weapon has almost a greater advantage as you are practically on the verge of enthusiastically implying. I'm sure that almost everyone on this forum and anyone that knows anything about guns will agree that when you are the person with the undrawn weapon against a person with a drawn weapon, you are the one who is greatly at a disadvantage. Not to say in some rare circumstances that you might be the winner, but odds are GREATLY against it.

I am not, nor have I said that it's not worth the try, but that most likely you will not be the winner.

I'm not sure where I'm not being clear on that, or where it appears to you that I have a closed mind, but that's my position, and I'd say most others as well.

[mikegideon]

You're all worried about people OCing causing businesses to post "no guns allowed" signs, or laws to become more restrictive, but you don't have an issue with someone who makes (made?) a living writing about guns and hunting handing Handgun Control Inc. and our government a pre-packaged argument for banning certain firearms, based on their appearance alone??? Especially in light of that exact type of ban already having been put in place once already???

I guess that old saying about people getting the government and laws that they deserve is true...

J.

I didn't bother to research Zumbo. If he's one of those guys, he needs his butt whipped.

I'm against open carry in the wrong situation because it makes more signs go up, and in some cases, gives the anti's more ammo.

[molonlabetn]

I'm against open carry in the wrong situation because it makes more signs go up, and in some cases, gives the anti's more ammo.

...because, of course we all know that the anti's will stop short of trying to take away concealed carry, if noone carried openly.

[Guest Jamie]

Exactly. So I leave you to yours. You must be right and I must be wrong.

I have offered more than just my opinion on the subject, along with the suggestion to research and study the subject for one's self. ( I have. )

I'll now also suggest that anyone who doubts that what I've said is true, to gets some people together, get the equipment needed, and try it for themselves and see how they do. ( I also have. )

What exactly have you done to support your opinion? Anything?

As for any need or compulsion to change your mind, I have none. It's not you that I have any further interest in discussing the subject with.

Anybody else that has an interest in examining the how and why of the whole "action is faster than reaction" phenomena, all they have to do is ask, or PM me.

J.

[rentalguy1]

You're all worried about people OCing causing businesses to post "no guns allowed" signs, or laws to become more restrictive, but you don't have an issue with someone who makes (made?) a living writing about guns and hunting handing Handgun Control Inc. and our government a pre-packaged argument for banning certain firearms, based on their appearance alone??? Especially in light of that exact type of ban already having been put in place once already???

I guess that old saying about people getting the government and laws that they deserve is true...

J.

That's not true at all, and you know it. I stated that I do not like or agree with his positions. They will cause problems in our cause, and I think that is stupid. The man has a right to state his opinions, though. I think his actions are exactly like people who OC, with the exception that the former knows what he is doing to the 2A, while the latter does not. The latter thinks everyone should mind their own and bite their lip, because he is exercising his 2A rights, but I equate it to blowing cigarette smoke in a non-smokers face. We smokers did not take the senses of our fellow man into consideration for decades, and look where we ended up...outside in the rain. All I'm asking for is some everyday common sense, and respect for the other man's feeling of security. Just because we have the right to OC does not mean we should all do so at the cost of upsetting a roomful of other people.

There is a time and a place for OC, and conducting routine business in town isn't it, IMHO. If you are out in the backwoods of the county, and among folks who know and appreciate guns, that is one thing, but when you come to town, where everyone is bunched up like sardines in a can, things are entirely different.

I also understand that some folks can't carry IWB. I recently discovered how comfortable it is to carry OWB in a paddle holster. It is still easily concealable with a untucked button down shirt (I usually wear a tucked in t-shirt underneath for comfort). If you have no way to conceal, then I don't think that means that you should go unarmed. By all means, OC your SD weapon in confidence. I just happen to think that these guys would be the exception not the rule, and I also think we shouldn't trash each other for having a different opinion. I know I said OCing was stupid in a previous post, and I apologize for that. I should have chosen my words more carefully.

[Guest Jamie]

You folks have done one helluva job of one thing; You've convinced me that I need to Open Carry more.

You've also convinced me that it might not be a bad thing if every business in TN were to post a sign banning guns in their establishments; Maybe then more gun owners would actually get up off their asses and do more than just bitch about Tn carry laws, or sit around wringing their hands over what somebody else may cause them to lose.

J.

[mikegideon]

You folks have done one helluva job of one thing; You've convinced me that I need to Open Carry more.

You've also convinced me that it might not be a bad thing if every business in TN were to post a sign banning guns in their establishments; Maybe then more gun owners would actually get up off their asses and do more than just bitch about Tn carry laws, or sit around wringing their hands over what somebody else may cause them to lose.

J.

And you could be right, but we ain't goinna prove it today. One thing we can COUNT on... a law will never be written that forces a property owner to accept open carry on his property, because that will infringe on his rights.

[Guest Jamie]

... a law will never be written that forces a property owner to accept open carry on his property, because that will infringe on his rights.

I do believe that Mississippi has just such a law... so maybe there's hope for TN after all. ( Not open carry, but a law limiting a property owner in regards to firearms. )

BTW... business owners don't have the same rights as a private property owner, so it's no stretch that something could eventually be passed that seriously restricts a business having a say-so regarding firearms.

J.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Jamie

[mikegideon]

I do believe that Mississippi has just such a law... so maybe there's hope for TN after all. ( Not open carry, but a law limiting a property owner in regards to firearms. )

BTW... business owners don't have the same rights as a private property owner, so it's no stretch that something could eventually be passed that seriously restricts a business having a say-so regarding firearms.

J.

I love Mississippi's attitude about guns, but it's doubtful that anybody will follow their lead. It was fun during the Katrina aftermath. Some of the out-of-state LEO's got a kick out of granny shooing away looters with her 12 ga. :-)

[Guest Jamie]

Mike, you may be right, but then I never thought the SCOTUS would rule the 2nd an individual right either.

J.

[mikegideon]

Mike, you may be right, but then I never thought the SCOTUS would rule the 2nd an individual right either.

J.

Yep, it's real scary. What's scarier is the fact that most of the ugliest gun control wordwide has been the result of a very few incidents. For example... One crazy guy shoots a fat politician, and now we have the Brady Bunch. We ALL have to put up with a ration of crap over that every day.

I'm also not a bit concerned about YOU open carrying anywhere you choose, because I know you have plenty of sense. It ain't gonna go bad. In fact, the theater incident would have never made the news if it had been you... but it wasn't.

[mcurrier]

I have offered more than just my opinion on the subject, along with the suggestion to research and study the subject for one's self. ( I have. )

Sir, you have proven nothing to me or anyone else.

I'll now also suggest that anyone who doubts that what I've said is true, to gets some people together, get the equipment needed, and try it for themselves and see how they do. ( I also have. )

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying at this point.

It seems that, especially in the holster discussion a few pages ago, that under ideal circumstances of having specific types of holsters, not carrying concealed and having the burden of clothing in the way, that, yes, it is possible to win the upper hand. That is not being disputed.

The original scenario presented stated the GG as OC'ing at that particular moment, so clothing restrictions were not an issue. My original statement regarding the original scenario was that "It's almost impossible to draw and beat a weapon that's already on you", in which you seem to have ignored a key word to what I said.

What exactly have you done to support your opinion? Anything?

Plenty. It's a well known fact that "It's almost impossible to draw and beat a weapon that's already on you." Not to mention the Tueller Rule concerning knife attack within 21 feet and not being able to draw in that time, but you insist that it is not even a problem drawing against an already drawn gun (distance irrelevant to this discussion at the moment, as none has been proposed in the scenario).

Have at it Marshall Dillon, I am not so confident in my capabilities as you seem to be in yours and are berating myself and others for not being absolutely assured in ours. I guess we will see if the situation ever warrants, but I'm not so foolhardy to say to myself, "no problem, I can outdraw anybody, even a drawn gun." I'm a bit more conservative and modest than that in the thinking of my own abilities. I would hope that if it happened that I could do it if that were the last choice, but could not say with absolute confidence right now that that's definitely what the outcome would be.

Anybody else that has an interest in examining the how and why of the whole "action is faster than reaction" phenomena, all they have to do is ask, or PM me.J.

While that may be a fascinating subject for discussion, you have stated it as settled fact. Others, am I wrong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcurrier

3. It's almost impossible to draw and beat a weapon that's already on you. He's got the drop on you.

True if you're drawing from concealment, not necessarily true if you're drawing from an uncovered holster.

As I have agreed that it is possible from the beginning, however this escapes you and you continue to state it as exact science.

And I don't know about you, but my old slow ass can still draw and fire from an open holster in under .5 second. And hit what I'm shooting at.

I don't know about me either, and I'm sure not going to take it for granted in a scenario like that that I can. I'm glad that you know you can. I don't sit around all day timing myself. As heard in many old western movies, "son, there's always someone who is faster." I'll assume everyone is faster than me, keep my eyes open and watch out for trouble and hopefully I'll live longer.

Can't do it from a covered holster though...

No one here ever said that you could. Not the scenario, not I, no one.

You folks have done one helluva job of one thing; You've convinced me that I need to Open Carry more.

Have at it. I have done it before (OC'd), to your surprise I'm sure, and in this entire discussion I have not been against open carrying, that was never my point or an issue. So I'm still not really sure where our disagreement lies, but apparently there seems to be one. Speed is my only point of disagreement with you, that pulling a gun from rest to on target gets there after the gun that is already on target. It's a fact of physics. Semantics of who will remain in better control of their faculties and such seem to have crept into your evidence. My only point EVER was that pulling a gun from rest to on target gets there after the gun that is already on target. Apparently that stance riles you for some reason. Sorry. It's just the way it is. An already turned on light bulb can't be beat by one that is off and switched on when someone yells "go". It just can't happen.

Doing the best I can here... :poop:

Not sure why you have taken on the burden of this thread on yourself and turning it into some major disagreement, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. There is no cause to champion here. I only disagree with you on speed and absolute faith in that speed.

If you don't think the analogy or example fits, the least you can do is offer up one you think does.

As I have done.

Originally Posted by JAB

I guess you could say that my objection has more to do with the tactics used than whether or not the battle should be fought.

So in other words, you've done all this typing here on this thread not to voice an opinion on Open Carry, or to attack or defend it... or even to discuss it... but to attack the way others have discussed/argued it, and the example or analogies that they've used in doing so?

Have I got that about right?

Because if I have, I'm not quite sure what to make of it...

J.

It seems that the pot has called the kettle black, or Zumbo as it were.

Edited February 5, 2010 by mcurrier

[JAB]

Okay, I'm going to be the one to try and bring a little 'stress reliever' to the thread. On the subject of 'beating the draw', I wouldn't want to be the guy with the holstered gun trying to outdraw an already drawn and levelled gun.

That said, I also wouldn't want to be the guy with an already drawn and levelled gun facing this guy with a holstered gun (and a single-action revolver at that):

You know, come to think of it, I wouldn't want to be facing a gun in any position or be in a position of having to draw mine. I will if I have to, though.

[Guest faust921]

Blah blah blah. Can we move on?

[Guest last1is4me]

I just look at it this way. I only carry a handgun to protect my family and I to best of my ability. The only way I feel that I can have any chance of doing this if the circumstance arises is to carry what I call I guess "semi-concealed". Holster on my waist band with a shirt or jacket hanging loose over the handgun. Sometimes its fully covered sometimes not. If a business owner cant accept that I want to protect my family the best that I possibly can then I just simply go elsewhere.

[setsdw]

This is no longer a debate on open OC vs CC its a dissagreement that should be done through PM's. You forget that anyone can read these forums and it's making the whole lot look like fools.

[Guest Jamie]

Blah blah blah. Can we move on?

Already have.

J.

[Guest Southern_Wolf]

You only have one person to please if you are permitted to carry a loaded firearm and that is you. Do be on the lookout for any business or establishment that has a sign posted informing you that "Joe Citizen" isn't allowed to carry in their establishment and for me I just make it a habit not to spend my money there unless it is just absolutely necessary. If they don't support your right to carry & defend your loved ones or yourself, why would you want to support them?

[Guest manofsteel]

just my 2 cents. sometimes i oc sometimes cc. depends on where im at and what im doing. i carry for ME no one else. when im in church or at a place with lots of people always cc. on a everyday nothing special day i carry it on my belt with my shirt or jacket over it. if im just running around, mowing, fishing, washing the truck. oc. at nite or in a place im not sure of, its where i can get it quick, out in the open. most of the time when im driving it is right beside me, no holster. someone tries to get in uninvited its simple.... drop the safety drop the hammer.