OPEN CARRY

[Guest Jamie]

Can't beat an already drawn gun.

You really need to do some research on that, because there are more than a few people who would prove you wrong.

J.

[timcalhoun]

You really need to do some research on that, because there are more than a few people who would prove you wrong.

J.

You can't beat a gun that is on you. I know you said you can do a .4+, but a common reaction time is .19.

BTW, I would love to hear the particulars on that draw. How far is the target and is it point shooting from the hip etc....

Edited February 3, 2010 by timcalhoun

[Guest Jamie]

You can't beat a gun that is on you. I know you said you can do a .4+, but a common reaction time is .19.

BTW, I would love to hear the paticulars on that draw. How far is the target and is it point shooting from the hip etc....

Human reaction time is usually closer to .24 or .25 to identify a threat, then another .24 or so to react to it. Which gives you a total of about half a second, on average.

Here's an excerpt from a story Massad Ayoob wrote in The Complete Book of Handguns 2003 that you may find interesting:

The year was 1974. Bill had been retired from the Border Patrol for some time, and was working for the NRA as sort of an ambassador at large. His speaking performances always included his famous quick-draw act. Bill was putting on the show in New Hampshire . Apart of the program involved having a cop come up and hold a cocked single-action revolver on him, with finger on trigger, while Bill promised to outdraw the drawn gun and “beat the drop” with his old long-action Smith & Wesson .38 Special Military & Police revolver. Both gun, of course with loaded only with primer blanks.

I had just won the NH State Championship in Police Combatshooting, and as the resident state champ, was elected to be the guy holding the gun on (gulp!) Bill Jordan. I put my finger on the trigger of the cocked Colt Single Action Army .45 and watched his hand. I was young and cocky and thought I was pretty good, and I knew there was not way this old sixty-something guy could take me.

BANG! I was dead. I was aware of a flicker of movement of his right hand and before I could react and pull the trigger, he had drawn and fired the shot that would have killed me had his gun been loaded with real bullets. “We’ll try again,” Bill told the audience with his kind, crinkly smile.

This time I was ready. When I saw his hand move, I fired. Unfortunately, it was a dead man’s shot. Bill had drawn and fired before my Colt’s hammer could fall through its long arc. You see, this was a man who was on film reacting to a start signal, drawing and firing his S&W (and hitting the target) in 24/100 ths of one second.

“I think this boy deserves one more chance,” Bill drawled to the delighted audience. “He almost made it that time.”

Okay, dammit, this time I’d really be ready. I had taken up the slack on the cocked Colt’s trigger. My eyes were on his right hand. When it moved I would…

BANG!

“What?!? His hand didn’t move! His revolver is still in the holster! And…”

Ah, yes. “And…” And, in Bill’s left hand, was a freshly-fired Smith & Wesson Airweight Chiefs Special that he had drawn from his left hip pocket and aimed at my head before he rolled back its smooth trigger on the primer blank that would have blown my brains out had it been a live round.

Oh, and notice the trick Mr. Jordan played with the BUG... It's a good lesson to remember.

Another fellow to look up would be Delf "Jelly" Bryce. I understand he also had the habit of "beating the drop".

J.

[JayC]

I've stated that CC is the BEST choice, but OC is better than not carrying.

There are times that some of us just don't have the choice to CC, and for whatever reason choose to OC because the 'tactical disadvantage' of OC'ing is still better than going unarmed.

The first article you reference backs this up theory up...

Lets say you're wearing business casual attire and don't have the ability to comfortably CC a compact pistol (you're choice on caliber, 9mm, 40, 45)... So lets say 'The Marine' goes in to eat with no weapon or only a 5 shot 22 pocket pistol... What happens to his chances of making it out of the Subway alive?

I'm not making an argument that you shouldn't CC, only that OC is much better than going unarmed.

Me personally, I'd rather go down trying to draw my pistol and having a fighting chance because somebody got the drop on me, than to be herded back to the restroom or freezer and pray they're such bad shots they can't execute me with a bullet to the head while I'm laying prone on the ground.

I think if you asked this marine what would have happened if he was OCing I think you would get an ear full.

The retired marine and the robbers | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET

And then there is this....Just reading through the odmp pages you will see time and time again the known was at a complete disadvantage to the unknown.

Police Officer John Pawlowski, Philadelphia Police Department

And remember when Sgt. Mark Chesnut was shot this summer? He watched as the BG walked up to the car and had a cc gun under his shirt and the known once again suffered at the hands of the unknown. If Mark could have seen he had a gun things would have been different.

The bottom line is that CC is a tactical advantage for either side.

Edited February 4, 2010 by JayC

[dwcz]

"Why can't we just encourage folks to act responsibly instead of bashing each other?"

In a society where the majority of the masses lack personal responsibility, what do you expect their reaction to be to something they typically associate with gang bangers, hill billys and cowboys?

The media certainly doesn't appear to make any real effort at responsible journalism either.

So, everyone's opinions and arguments for/against aside, the media typically shapes the general public's opinion of what is good/bad and stokes the fear and uses anything to push the typical "guns are bad" agenda.

A news story about a legally armed citizen justifiably using their weapon to defend themselves or prevent a crime typically promotes responsible gun ownership in a positive light. This arguably helps society see how having a gun is reasonable and maybe even desirable to prevent something similar from happening to them.

Hearing about a legally armed citizen OC'ing and causing a scene (even unintentionally) "just because they have the right" to OC - not just on the news but even more so when it makes headlines - does not contribute to society viewing gun ownership and being armed in a positive light. It typically comes across as unnecessary and unreasonable and most media outlets use it as ammo to fan the flames of fear.

So, how does it make any sense to OC when you KNOW you are probably going to cause a negative reaction of some type to someone who sees you?

Keep it concealed. Out of sight, out of mind. Still legally armed. Everyone's happy (well, except those who demand to sit in the front seat of the bus and like to scare the other passengers by flaunting their rights).

Oh yeah, forgot to say IMO...

Edited February 4, 2010 by dwcz

[mcurrier]

You really need to do some research on that, because there are more than a few people who would prove you wrong.

J.

Jocularity aside, I don't think any of those .0000000005% of the world population that can are members of this forum. I know of maybe 3 or 4 guys in the world who could (might), but I know of no one here that could do it intentionally, under pressure, and win.

[Guest Jamie]

Jocularity aside, I don't think any of those .0000000005% of the world population that can are members of this forum. I know of maybe 3 or 4 guys in the world who could (might), but I know of no one here that could do it intentionally, under pressure, and win.

There's no jocularity involved here.

I don't think it takes being supernaturally quick. I do think it takes a lot of guts, a lot of practice drawing and firing, and no hesitation... and that's what most people just don't have.

It also takes being able to draw without telegraphing it... which takes a lot of practice by it's self, and someone to help "coach" you on what you're doing wrong.

One way or the other, the down side to the whole deal is that even if you draw and fire before the other fellow pulls the trigger... you've probably only got about a 25% chance - or less - of preventing him from firing. And I'm not even gonna try to figure the odds of surviving if he does.

One way or the other, I'm afraid I'm the sort that figures some chance is better than none, and would make the attempt. And I'd try to time it so I drew when the other fellow was the most distracted. ( Start talking to the person and draw and fire mid-sentence while continuing to talk. )

I'm also vividly aware that the only way a person who's carrying concealed is going to beat someone who's already holding a gun on them is through trickery and blind luck.

The fact of the matter is, "beating the drop" from an unconcealed holster just isn't the impossible task that it appears to be, thanks to the way the human brain and nervous system works. Action really is faster than reaction.

J.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Jamie

[mcurrier]

whatever dude.

There's no jocularity involved here.

I don't think it takes being supernaturally quick. I do think it takes a lot of guts, a lot of practice drawing and firing, and no hesitation... and that's what most people just don't have.

It also takes being able to draw without telegraphing it... which takes a lot of practice by it's self, and someone to help "coach" you on what you're doing wrong.

One way or the other, the down side to the whole deal is that even if you draw and fire before the other fellow pulls the trigger... you've probably only got about a 25% chance - or less - of preventing him from firing. And I'm not even gonna try to figure the odds of surviving if he does.

One way or the other, I'm afraid I'm the sort that figures some chance is better than none, and would make the attempt. And I'd try to time it so I drew when the other fellow was the most distracted. ( Start talking to the person and draw and fire mid-sentence while continuing to talk. )

I'm also vividly aware that the only way a person who's carrying concealed is going to beat someone who's already holding a gun on them is through trickery and blind luck.

The fact of the matter is, "beating the drop" from an unconcealed holster just isn't the impossible task that it appears to be, thanks to the way the human brain and nervous system works. Action really is faster than reaction.

J.

[Guest Jamie]

whatever dude.

Well, since nothing is harder to open than a closed mind, I'll leave you to your particular beliefs.

Just be aware that if you ever end up holding someone who has a gun openly holstered on their hip at gun point... you might not have as much of an advantage as you think you do.

On a side note... "beating the drop" would be a good one for the folks at Mythbusters to tackle. It might not ( probably not ) prove much of anything, given the way they do things, but it would be entertaining as hell to watch none the less.

J.

[JAB]

Just be aware that if you ever end up holding someone who has a gun openly holstered on their hip at gun point... you might not have as much of an advantage as you think you do.

J.

With regards to that, what are your thoughts on holsters that are tightly molded for retention vs. holsters with a thumb break, retention strap or a 'button' on the holster you must press in order to present the weapon? I certainly want good retention for CC (whenever possible, I carry my primary at about 3:00 to 3:30 OWB under a cover garment - usually cover with an unbuttoned shirt or open jacket and have practiced sweeping the garment back and drawing) but do you think that OC requires a greater level of retention built into the holster? How would you balance retention vs. ease of presentation in case of a 'beat the draw' scenario? Concerns of retention vs. speed of presentation are part (only a small part, but part) of the reason I don't OC more often - I feel I'd need more retention than my FOBUS offers but, as I'm not exactly 'Quickdraw McGraw' as it is, I worry that such retention - and especially some type of retention strap - would slow me down too much.

[Guest Jamie]

With regards to that, what are your thoughts on holsters that are tightly molded for retention vs. holsters with a thumb break, retention strap or a 'button' on the holster you must press in order to present the weapon? I certainly want good retention for CC (whenever possible, I carry my primary at about 3:00 to 3:30 OWB under a cover garment - usually cover with an unbuttoned shirt or open jacket and have practiced sweeping the garment back and drawing) but do you think that OC requires a greater level of retention built into the holster? How would you balance retention vs. ease of presentation in case of a 'beat the draw' scenario? Concerns of retention vs. speed of presentation are part (only a small part, but part) of the reason I don't OC more often - I feel I'd need more retention than my FOBUS offers but, as I'm not exactly 'Quickdraw McGraw' as it is, I worry that such retention - and especially some type of retention strap - would slow me down too much.

In most cases, the fitted holsters with no retention straps are the quickest to draw from, with some of the strapped designs being not far behind them. The "triple retention" jobs are the slowest of all... I used one for a while when I worked for the S.O. and hated it. Ended up cutting the locking tab that's down in the holster out of it. I never had any problem with it after that.

As far as a holster for the average person, for OC, I think that depends on exactly how and where a person wears it, and what type of situation they tend to find themselves in. If they're going to be tanding in close quarters with other people frequently, with the gun at 4 or 5 o'clock, I would lean toward having a retaining strap of some kind. If it's worn at 3 o'clock or cross-draw, I don't really think it makes much difference, provided you stay aware of who's close to you and what they're up to. An elbow tucked over the gun can go a long way there, at the 3 o'clock position, and anyone close in front of you is probably going to be facing away from you anyway.

If you carry the gun at 3 o'clock, you may very well bump the strap loose with your own elbow at times too, from time to time. ( Done that more than once, climbing in and out of a patrol car. But then again, duty belts aren't exactly "egress friendly ".)

For me personally, I'm currently expecting to buy a 3" barreled SP101 sometime soon, and am torn between a pancake-style holster with no strap, and this one:

It's built to hold a hammerless gun, so it has a retention strap that crosses over the trigger guard. I've used one like it before, and they're pretty quick to draw from. Your middle finger unlocks the gun as you take a grip on it, but the process will slow down someone trying to snatch the gun, if they don't understand how the holster works.

Like everybody else, I fully expect to have a drawer full of holsters for the gun before too long, so give me a while and I'll let you know which one turns out to be my favorite.

( Thinking about it, I don't think I currently own a holster with a retaining strap of any kind, for any of my guns... )

Edit: You mentioned holsters with a button to release the gun... I tend to only use leather holsters, so really don't have any experience with the Kydex jobs that have a button-style latch to keep the gun in. I'm just old-fashioned and set in my ways, I guess.

( The triple retention monstrosity I mentioned earlier was nylon cloth over a plastic shell. I forget the brand.)

J.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Jamie

[Guest evo8ricer]

''No Guns Allowed'' | brien, carry, gun - Local News - WTVC NewsChannel 9: Chattanooga News, Weather, Radar, Sports, Lottery

this is a reason not open carry it just cause too much conflict for us HCP

[Guest Jamie]

''No Guns Allowed'' | brien, carry, gun - Local News - WTVC NewsChannel 9: Chattanooga News, Weather, Radar, Sports, Lottery

this is a reason not open carry it just cause too much conflict for us HCP

It's gonna take a lot of conflict, if we're gonna not only keep the rights we have, but also gain back what we've lost.

As for the above story... I can't really make up my mind exactly how I feel about it.

J.

[Currently]

This is exactly the point that I and a couple others have been trying to make.

It is a no win situation. How much are you willing to bet the theater is posted by the end of the month?

If he would of carried concealed, no second glance, no hassle, no unwanted confrontation, no posting of the theater.

WIN-WIN.

How many doors have to slam shut before one realizes that there is a time and place for everything?

[Guest last1is4me]

I believe if everyone carrys concealed and is content doing so, we will lose the right to carry open. I for one dont want to be required to carry concealed. I always wear a shirt tale over my handgun, but it clear that im carrying a gun. If you have a kind and patient criminal holding you up, he might just let you untuck your shirt and get to your gun.

[dwcz]

This is exactly the point that I and a couple others have been trying to make.

It is a no win situation. How much are you willing to bet the theater is posted by the end of the month?

If he would of carried concealed, no second glance, no hassle, no unwanted confrontation, no posting of the theater.

WIN-WIN.

How many doors have to slam shut before one realizes that there is a time and place for everything?

Exactly...

[Guest Jamie]

Y'know, I don't think I ever realized how many "Zumbos" had carry permits 'til now.

It makes me wonder how we've managed to keep what few gun rights we still have...

J.

[Guest HexHead]

Y'know, I don't think I ever realized how many "Zumbos" had carry permits 'til now.

It makes me wonder how we've managed to keep what few gun rights we still have...

J.

Makes me wonder how many carry on a regular daily basis?

[rentalguy1]

WTF is a ZUMBO? Someone who has a different opinion than you???

[Guest Jamie]

WTF is a ZUMBO? Someone who has a different opinion than you???

Jim Zumbo.

Google the name.

J.

[rentalguy1]

Jim Zumbo.

Google the name.

J.

Thanks. It's just as I thought, someone with a dissenting opinion. I guess where the 2A is concerned, the 1A doesn't apply. That's just sad that people get beat on for having a differing opinion.

[mikegideon]

Makes me wonder how many carry on a regular daily basis?

I carry everywhere that's legal. I do have to admit that most of the time it's a J frame, so it's sissy carry. I'm breaking in new leather for my 1911, and I'm going to start carrying that when practical (not sissy carry). It's a pretty rig (galco holster and belt), but I'm not gonna show it off in public.

[Alpha7]

I googled zumbo and read some of his stuff. He sounds like an idgit.

[rentalguy1]

I googled zumbo and read some of his stuff. He sounds like an idgit.

I don't care for his views, either. But he is still entitled to them, isn't he? He's also entitled to speak, write and publish them as well. Just like some of the members here are entitled to speak out against OC, and others are entitled to speak out in favor of OC.

Mike, I haven't been able to find a leather holster to work with my larger carry guns. I happened across a Fobus paddle holster and it works great for CC'ing my PT-92. It would work great for a 1911, too, since it is a little shorter than the 92.

[mikegideon]

Thanks. It's just as I thought, someone with a dissenting opinion. I guess where the 2A is concerned, the 1A doesn't apply. That's just sad that people get beat on for having a differing opinion.

Yep, and we're all supposed to be on the same side. Some believe that we should try to stay out of the news, and some want to turn it into a pissin' contest. We're just gonna have to see how it all shakes out.