Obligation to Carry?

[RobD]

I've been thinking about this thread for a few days now.

Not really sure that I can really add to the argument. I can say that for me personaly I am not responsable for anyone other then myself and my family. While I empithise with the sheeple they have both the freedom and the ability to become more then just potential victims if they so choose. I pitty the person that knowingly chooses to make themselves the most vulnerable person and thus a victim, and personaly I feel no obligation to save them from thier miss-guided ways.

(Sorry about the bad spelling)

[Harold]

Having thought about this topic and what I might do in alot of the situations outlined here. First and for most myself and family. Yes I carry everyday any place I legally can since I never know what is around the next corner and they are my first concern. Stop the threat if I have to but ideally get them out of the situation.

Second part to me is where it gets a little more difficult the assisting of the "sheep" as they were referred to as earlier. The only situation I can see myself stepping up is what I have heard called an "active shooter" situation. So I am clear this what I consider an active shooter is "... an armed person who has used deadly physical force on other persons and continues to do so while having unrestricted access to additional victims." The robber waving the gun to get the cash is not active shooter..

Just my two cents..

[McAllyn]

My cover garment is not a cape.

Mac

[Guest Jamie]

If you have a TN Handgun Carry Permit (thanks again Titan14) do you feel obligated to carry as often as you are able in order to protect the sheep you encounter?

I don't feel obligated to do anything except be prepared to deal with any trouble that comes my way, with whatever is at hand to work with. I carry a gun whenever that's feasible, but will make do without it if required.

I do not do this for anyone but myself, nor do I allow anyone else to try and force their own beliefs on me concerning it.

I am no sheepdog.

Now, I've got to give credit where credit is due, this subject was introduced to me by Nutnfancy on youtube.com. If you are not aware of Nutnfancy, he reviews guns, knives, and survival equipment... and does quit a good job at it, in my humble opinion..... anyway, one of his videos is titled, "Obligation to Carry."

After watching Nutnfancy's video, I admit that I agreed with him 100%. I feel that I have an obligation to carry since I acquired my TN Handgun Carry Permit. Nutfancy calls us (gun owners, especially handgun carry people) shepherds and the people walking around oblivious to possible dangerous situations (and not prepared to handle these situations) sheep.

I'm of the opinion that Nutnfancy is a pretentious jackass that needs to stick to technical reviews of guns... He does pretty well with that, but loses my attention fast when he starts voicing his personal opinions and world views.

He and many others also overlook the fact that sheepdogs and shepherds are both paid for their services... Neither does what they do out of the goodness of their hearts.

And having "been there, done that" with regard to protecting others, and having found the payment less than worth the cost of the service, I'll never do it again.

Remember, no good deed goes unpunished.

Anyway, what do you think? Is it OK to leave your piece home when you anticipate a quick trip to Walley World? Or should you take off your belt and put on your deep conceal holster before you journey out?

It's okay to leave my weapon(s) at home any time I please, given that no one's skin is at stake other than my own. Were I still a soldier or a cop it would be different, since then I would be putting others at risk. Since I'm not, the choice and the risk are entirely mine.

BTW, regarding the sheep.... I doubt it makes much difference to them whether it's the shepherd, the sheepdog, or the wolf that ends up eating 'em.

And in the end, that's what all three have in mind for the sheep.

J.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jamie

[Guest Caveman]

BTW, regarding the sheep.... I doubt it makes much difference to them whether it's the shepherd, the sheepdog, or the wolf that ends up eating 'em.

And in the end, that's what all three have in mind for the sheep.

J.

+1

[Guest AlzRuger]

I carry for one reason....to protect me and mine. If other reasons arise, I will deal with it at the time.

I carry 100% of the time. When I put on my pants, I put on my gun. My biggest fear is reaching for my gun and thinking "Oh...I didn't think I would need it today!"

[Guest WTDeBerry]

Nutfancy calls us (gun owners, especially handgun carry people) shepherds and the people walking around oblivious to possible dangerous situations (and not prepared to handle these situations) sheep.

QUOTE]

We are the Sheep Dogs, actually. Civilian Sheep Dog. No disrespect. I am a HUGE fan of TNP.

[Guest Jamie]

We are the Sheep Dogs, actually. Civilian Sheep Dog. No disrespect. I am a HUGE fan of TNP.

No, the the soldiers and LEOs are the sheepdogs, and the politicians, judges, etc. are the shepherds... And they all survive and subsist off the "sheeple".

Those of us that go armed are neither sheep nor sheepdog, and certainly not shepherds, since we don't have to rely on the "sheep" for sustenance.

Honestly, I don't understand all the sanctimonious crap concerning being ready and capable of defending one's self... Most animals have the capacity, and you don't see them trying to make something more of it than it is. Why is it humans feel such an urge? Is it nothing more than an attempt to fool other people into not trying to take the ability away from you, to pretend that you're doing it for them?

I just don't get it, this apparent "hero" complex....

J.

Edited January 30, 2010 by Jamie

[Punisher84]

At the risk of coming across as a smart-alec, that sounds like a real nice quote to have engraved on a tombstone.

It should actually strike you more as a motto for life. I know alot of good soldiers and cops who quote that.

Anyway here's my 2 cents on this. Carrying a gun is a personal decision that only you can make and you have to know your priorities. Mine are my family and friends, myself, other people. In that order. I won't say I will NEVER protect someone anymore than I'll say I'll always protect them.

A point was made that every law abiding citizen has the option to learn to defend themselves, carry a gun/pepper spray/etc, and we are all masters of of our own destinies. I am not responsible for you no more than you can be held responsible for me.

If you are carrying a gun to play hero then I urge you to seek professional training to curb that attitude or join the military or become a LEO. You carry a gun to stop the threat of an active threat upon life, period. If you engage in 3rd party self-defense you had damn well better make sure you're ducks are in the row and dotting their i's and crossing their t's. Because if you make a mistake, the consequences are permanent.

[Guest AreSeeFiddyWon]

I absolutely do not carry for anyone but ME. I am not a shepherd, nor a hero, nor a LEO, nor a soldier in battle. Its about self-preservation. I will protect myself and/or any close family or friends(and im not one to use the word friend loosely). Everyone else has the same right/privelege(sp?) as I do to go through the proper channels to get their permit and carry a gun to protect themselves, not my responsibility. I cant say that even if I did have my gun on me that I would stop, for example, a robbery in progress, if I wasnt in danger myself.

This is exactly what I would have typed. (Except I would have spelled privilege correctly. )

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

I absolutely do not carry for anyone but ME. I am not a shepherd, nor a hero, nor a LEO, nor a soldier in battle. Its about self-preservation. I will protect myself and/or any close family or friends(and im not one to use the word friend loosely). Everyone else has the same right/privelege(sp?) as I do to go through the proper channels to get their permit and carry a gun to protect themselves, not my responsibility. I cant say that even if I did have my gun on me that I would stop, for example, a robbery in progress, if I wasnt in danger myself.

Strange things happen here.....while reading this entire thread it was also nightrunner's post that I also would have pretty much said word for word and was going to quote. As I start this post AreSeefiddyWon's quote of it is the last post. I am certain I will be interrupted though. As for the spelling I would have probably messed it up also but spell-check is a wonderful thing.

Gawain (OP) The only obligation your HCP came with both legally and morally are to use your Privilege Responsibly. Yes folks I used the word privilege because our Govt. has taken our God Given Right and made us jump thru hoops and pay hard earned money to exercise that right which for all intents and purposes has turned it into a privilege. If one does not have the money or can not jump thru the hoops one can not exercise their right and thus it becomes a privilege for those of us who can. ( sorry to digress from the OP subject)

I carry daily every where I legally can, I have not had my permit long but it has already become part of getting dressed, A cell phone became part of my every day clothing years ago. I also carry on my person in my house and even within reach while in the shower. But as I stated I feel my only "obligation" is to carry Legally and Responsibly.

I have no legal obligation to use my Permit/privilege/God Given Right to protect anyone, Legally speaking I dont even HAVE to protect my own. When it comes to the moral part of the equation I do feel I have some obligation to try to protect an innocent and of course myself and my own, but I still have the obligation to do what is best for my own family in any situation that I may encounter concerning innocents.

I believe that I am the same as 90++ percent of those here in that I am not going to stand by while someone murders innocent people if I think I can stop them, but I am not going to run into a building or store just because I hear shots and screams. And quite a lot of thoughts will go into whether or not I will think I can stop them or not.

I consider my self a pretty good shot at the range but any situation that I may encounter is probably not going to be at the range. I am going to have to believe with all my heart that I can stop the threat without injuring anyone else, I am also going to be 100% certain that there is a legal threat.

As we know protection of property including money is not a justified reason to use deadly force in TN. Also even if you wittiness someone kill someone else (even your best friend or family member) and they start to run away you do not have a legal right to shoot them in the back, as the threat is no longer present as much as you or even I would probably want to do just that. Now if you can somehow get them to turn back around that may would change the equation again

So, NO Gawain your HCP came with no obligation to protect anyone, just the obligation to use it Legally and Responsibly.

As has already been said walking around thinking you have that obligation is a very dangerous thing. Please reconsider and dont do it, it can only end up meaning trouble for you.

If I have my family with me I am going to try and become invisible and get out if at all possible. If I am alone my actions may well be different but still with the "what is best for MY family" on my mind first.

As for nutnfancy....I enjoy watching his reviews for the most part, the dude cracks me up sometimes and I enjoy that. He also comes up with some logical yet far-fetched ideas such as the one that if you work on the 60th floor of a high-rise building it would be a good idea to take some Base-Jumping lessons and keep a rig at your office. Very logical thought but not likely to become a common thing any time soon.

I think he does a good job with weapons reviews and also with the ones on multi-tools, since I am currently looking for a new one I found them helpful. I have not watched any on knifes but 40 minutes does seem a long time for a knife review. I also have not seen the one in which he says we have an obligation to protect others just because we have carry permits, I certainly dont agree with that.

[ncomarc]

Thanks Punisher84 - you got the point acrosss better than me.

No one really knows how they will react in an extreme situation, but I do feel that when inoocents are gravely in danger and I'am in the middle of the situation and if there is no alternative, then and only then will using deadly force be thought about. I have been in a store in a robbery and if the robber would have asked for my personal belonings, I would have no issue giving it to them. Luckily all they wanted was what was in the cash register.

[lock n' load]

As a HCP holder, I agree with the majority of responses on the best way to handle 3rd party protection. I carry almost always all the time when I am not at work. I carry to protect myself primarily. Unless I am at work, my firearm is on me when I leave the house (especially at night). It is not worth the risk to lose your a$$ necessarily to protect others who chose not to do it themselves unless you are willing to lay it all on the line to be a "hero". With that said, if one watches some videos on TV such as "Most Shocking" and see bad guys doing horrible things to people and watching as the victim helplessly gives in to the bad guy's demands, only to see some of those victims fight back, it does bring a smile to my face to see the victim (or in some instances, a complete stranger) turn the tables on the aggressors. I am curious if the 3rd party was doing it for fear of what would happen to the other person OR if might be a case of vigilante justice. I wonder if anyone on here believes that some shootings to protect others might be a case of vigilante justice.

[Guest manofsteel]

+1 what sgt.joe said. WE (HCP holders) have no obligation to shoot anyone. It will allways be a choice. And it better be the right choice.

[Guest Jamie]

No one really knows how they will react in an extreme situation...

... unless they've already been there. Then they do indeed know how they'll react.

J.

[Fallguy]

... unless they've already been there. Then they do indeed know how they'll react.

J.

Well....they know how they reacted in that situation. While they may do some things the same, doesn't mean they would react exactly the same in a future similar situation.

Just like a woman that has given birth before.....while it may help, doesn't mean the next pregnancy/birth will be the same.

[Punisher84]

Well....they know how they reacted in that situation. While they may do some things the same, doesn't mean they would react exactly the same in a future similar situation.

Just like a woman that has given birth before.....while it may help, doesn't mean the next pregnancy/birth will be the same.

Yea I remember we went down that road awhile back and ended up with a bunch of pissed off combat vets.

Experience is better than having no experience and telling people with experience what they might or might not do.

[Guest Jamie]

Well....they know how they reacted in that situation. While they may do some things the same, doesn't mean they would react exactly the same in a future similar situation.

Yes, every situation is different, and therefore a person's actions would generally have to be as well. However, how they deal with things... whether they panic and lock up, move faster/slower, become more precise in their thinking and actions, quit thinking altogether and fall back on their training etc., is something they really won't know until they've been tried.

Not everyone can get through boot camp, or the police academy, or firefighter's school... or any other sort of intensive training. And even for that, some that do get through those things still fold up or fail when it's "for real".

Just like a woman that has given birth before.....while it may help, doesn't mean the next pregnancy/birth will be the same.

Y'know, Ive been shot at a time or two, but I've never been pregnant... so I'm not entirely sure this is even a good example. And given that, until I do go through the process myself, I think I'll reserve both judgment and further comment.

J.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Jamie

[Fallguy]

Of course I didn't mean to imply that having been in similar situations wasnt' helpful.

Also good point in that you will have a better knowledge of what your fight, flight or freeze response will be.

[Guest Gawain]

Well.... after reading everyone's replies and arguments, I can honestly say I appreciate the people on this list. Having an opinion on a subject is a very good thing. It means you care (one way or the other) and you think for yourself. I've found in life that many people don't care while a greater percentage of individuals don't think for themselves. They'd just as soon have someone else do their thinking.

OK.. let's get away from the reasons to carry. If you have a HCP, should you attempt to carry as much as possible, or is it quite alright to just leave your piece at home most of the time, gathering dust in your dresser?

For what its worth, I do not have a crusader or superman mentality, even though my nickname is Gawain. LOL My belief system is configured to accept a responsibility to help others in most situations. If you are stranded on the highway, I am likely to stop and see if I can help you, even with the risks involved. If you lie bleeding after an accident, I'll try and stop the blood, even with the risks of a law suit. My belief system is such that helping others (even at risk to myself) is paramount to a feeling of self-worth and overall good feelings about who I am being at any given moment in time.

If I was able to save other people's lives at a mall where a crazy person was shooting people indiscriminately, I would feel really great about my contribution to my fellow man(wo-man) and probably shy away from any public recognition (unless I thought I could further the cause of second amendment rights). It helps me to tell the world and myself who I am and what my values are. For me, moving away from selfish attitudes is one way for me to grow at a soul level. You know, the golden rule and all that!

Thank-you everyone for your opinions and your well thought out replies.

[JAB]

If you have a HCP, should you attempt to carry as much as possible, or is it quite alright to just leave your piece at home most of the time, gathering dust in your dresser?

I think that is something everyone must decide for themselves. I don't believe there is any 'duty' to carry just because you have an HCP any more than there is a 'duty' to drive (or even own) a car simply because you have a driver's license or a 'duty' to carry a fishing pole simply because you have a fishing license.

That said, from a personal standpoint, if I wanted to leave my firearm at home I wouldn't have spent the time, money and effort to obtain an HCP. I didn't get it just to have it and I could certainly have used that money on something else. Therefore, I will carry the majority of the time that I can legally do so - and I only say 'majority of the time' because 'always' is a little too absolute a term, for me. Let's say 'pretty much always, when legal'.

Of course, I also understand that there are some folks who have their HCP so that they have the option of carrying and can choose to legally do so if they will be in an area outside of their comfort zone or in a place where they perceive an elevated level of risk. Now, to my thinking that overlooks the fact that bad things can happen at a time and place we least expect them to happen but those folks make their decisions based on their own ideas and criteria and have every right to do so.

Edited February 2, 2010 by JAB