Obligation to Carry?

[Mark@Sea]

Fortunately, in Tennessee you can defend another, and thus covered from the bill...if I recall correctly.

Unfortunately, though, what the local prosecutor decides to do is all too often based on his own prejudice and political ambition, rather than the law - and he has zero liability for his actions.

[Guest Ravendove]

Personally..... I would take any chance (with my own life) to save another person's life in a situation where I was armed and a crazy person came into a restaurant shooting people. In my humble opinion (just my opinion).... anyone who has a handgun carry permit that would run away in order to save themselves in that particular situation should not carry a firearm.

I haven't been on in a while and I have my reasons, but I came across this and couldn't pass it up. This paragraph reminds me of a true story I read a few years back. In it, a man went armed into a McDonalds and proceeded to stick the place up. He was very loud and very erratic. Possibility that he would become violent even if unprovoked, probably high but one can't really be sure. In this same McDonalds was an armed, off duty officer dining with his family. It was at this point that the officer decided to cross the restaurant, weapon drawn, and order the criminal to disarm. Instead of disarming, the criminal turned and opened fire. The two of them shot it out and, after expending two magazines, the officer won the fight and the criminal was dead. Victory, right? The officer thought so as well until he turned around to see a twelve year old girl laying dead on the floor. She was hit in the cross-fire.

In retrospect, he now wishes he'd made getting his family out the back door his priority. The fact that he was off-duty law enforcement really has no bearing on this story. That could just as easily have been one of us carry permit holders. What matters here is the outcome of the intent. It was pointed out earlier on this thread, by someone who is obviously very wise, that feeling obligated to protect so-called sheep is a dangerous way of thinking. I agree and this story is why. Had everyone lived but the bad guy, he probably would have been regarded as a hero. But life isn't that fair. By stepping up in such situations, it's very probable that you'll end up putting more people in a greater level of danger than was already the case.

Aside from that, I have a much higher obligation to my wife and family. Certain people depend on me and those people are more important, as far as I'm concerned, than strangers. If I go to someone's rescue and die, sure, I may be called a hero. Maybe I'll even have saved the person's life and get all kinds of praise from society. That's great, but where does that leave my family? Where does that leave my grief stricken wife who has to pick up the pieces? Not in a very good position, obviously.

Aside from all that, the notion that "WE" are "Shepherds" and "THEY" are "Sheep" is an arrogant one. It's an insulting viewpoint and one I don't think anyone here deserves to raise themselves to the level of. My feeling on that subject is simple. Don't put yourself on a pedestal and don't be so quick to cast downward glances at others.

[JReedEsq]

I haven't been on in a while and I have my reasons, but I came across this and couldn't pass it up. This paragraph reminds me of a true story I read a few years back. In it, a man went armed into a McDonalds and proceeded to stick the place up. He was very loud and very erratic. Possibility that he would become violent even if unprovoked, probably high but one can't really be sure. In this same McDonalds was an armed, off duty officer dining with his family. It was at this point that the officer decided to cross the restaurant, weapon drawn, and order the criminal to disarm. Instead of disarming, the criminal turned and opened fire. The two of them shot it out and, after expending two magazines, the officer won the fight and the criminal was dead. Victory, right? The officer thought so as well until he turned around to see a twelve year old girl laying dead on the floor. She was hit in the cross-fire.

In retrospect, he now wishes he'd made getting his family out the back door his priority. The fact that he was off-duty law enforcement really has no bearing on this story. That could just as easily have been one of us carry permit holders. What matters here is the outcome of the intent. It was pointed out earlier on this thread, by someone who is obviously very wise, that feeling obligated to protect so-called sheep is a dangerous way of thinking. I agree and this story is why. Had everyone lived but the bad guy, he probably would have been regarded as a hero. But life isn't that fair. By stepping up in such situations, it's very probable that you'll end up putting more people in a greater level of danger than was already the case.

Aside from that, I have a much higher obligation to my wife and family. Certain people depend on me and those people are more important, as far as I'm concerned, than strangers. If I go to someone's rescue and die, sure, I may be called a hero. Maybe I'll even have saved the person's life and get all kinds of praise from society. That's great, but where does that leave my family? Where does that leave my grief stricken wife who has to pick up the pieces? Not in a very good position, obviously.

Aside from all that, the notion that "WE" are "Shepherds" and "THEY" are "Sheep" is an arrogant one. It's an insulting viewpoint and one I don't think anyone here deserves to raise themselves to the level of. My feeling on that subject is simple. Don't put yourself on a pedestal and don't be so quick to cast downward glances at others.

Well stated!

[E4 No More]

Unfortunately, though, what the local prosecutor decides to do is all too often based on his own prejudice and political ambition, rather than the law - and he has zero liability for his actions.

True that nothing protects you from a rogue DA, but "zero liability" didn't work out too well for Mike Nifong in the Duke rape case. I think that sent a message to the average DA.

[Guest m&pc9]

I carry to protect my family and myself.

Sorry sheep, you should have been prepared.

[Mark@Sea]

Is Mike Nifong in prison? How about Martha Coakly? With an afternoons' research I could give you a list of DA's as long as my leg who intentionally and knowingly disregarded fact, manufactured evidence of guilt, destroyed evidence of innocence, coerced witnesses, and not only broke but smashed law and civil rights in order to turn innocent people into political trophies.

Now if Mikey were doing 12-15 in the state pen, or if these 'rogue' attorneys regularly turned up in the daisy farming business, I might agree that there was a message being sent. As it is, the message is that unless you are extraordinarily unfortunate in picking your victim, you can do any-damn-thing at all.

Chances are better than fair that anyone who borrows trouble, although morally right, will get his or her head handed to them afterwards.

[raydog1]

Me and mine. In any other case, the situation would have to be very clear cut - such as the guy pouring gasoline on a woman in a parking lot (stopped by a permit holder when he pulled out a lighter) or the guy stabbing the woman in wal-mart (shot to death by a permit holder after repeated warnings).

All those scenarios where you are in a public place with someone shooting people randomly, then you are in danger, correct?

Sorry, no link, but there was a guy in Texas, stopped at a mall to buy ammo (he was on the way to the range). He witnessed a man shoot a woman in the parking lot, then stand over her and shoot her in the head. The good guy fired several shots, the killer made it several blocks before bleeding out and parking his vehicle against a phone pole.

The good guy subsequently spent several years getting pronged by the local DA, who eventually got a grand jury to indict, although he was found not guilty at trial.

Cost to the DA (democrat with political ambitions): zero. Cost to the guy that stopped a killer? Hundreds of thousands in legal bills.

I have no intention of destroying my (and my familys') life to save a stranger. I'm NOT Batman.

Wel, I AM Batman! And I agree with you completely. If the exit is closer to me and my family/friends than the shooter, then it's time to get us all out of there and unholster the cell phone.

And BTW, I stopped watching Nutnfancy when his gun/knife reviews went from a brief & informative 10 minutes to 40 minutes of talking points this, talking points that. I mean REALLY? A 40 minute Youtube video about a knife???

[Raoul]

Is Mike Nifong in prison? How about Martha Coakly? With an afternoons' research I could give you a list of DA's as long as my leg who intentionally and knowingly disregarded fact, manufactured evidence of guilt, destroyed evidence of innocence, coerced witnesses, and not only broke but smashed law and civil rights in order to turn innocent people into political trophies.

Now if Mikey were doing 12-15 in the state pen, or if these 'rogue' attorneys regularly turned up in the daisy farming business, I might agree that there was a message being sent. As it is, the message is that unless you are extraordinarily unfortunate in picking your victim, you can do any-damn-thing at all.

Chances are better than fair that anyone who borrows trouble, although morally right, will get his or her head handed to them afterwards.

Amen. Well said Mark.

[DaveTN]

Nope, I have fulfilled my obligations and then some.

I do not live in fear and do not feel the need to carry a gun everywhere I go.

I do not have the protections that I had as a cop; so I will leave law enforcement to them.

If you want to carry a gun and be the protector of the people; that is admirable. But go sign up at your local PD to start the hiring process and see if you can make the cut.

[eapking]

I'm obligated to protect myself. I am not obligated to protect any "sheep". Feeling obligated to protect random people with your HCP is a dangerous line of thinking.

Agree here 1000%

[E4 No More]

Is Mike Nifong in prison? How about Martha Coakly? With an afternoons' research I could give you a list of DA's as long as my leg who intentionally and knowingly disregarded fact, manufactured evidence of guilt, destroyed evidence of innocence, coerced witnesses, and not only broke but smashed law and civil rights in order to turn innocent people into political trophies.

Now if Mikey were doing 12-15 in the state pen, or if these 'rogue' attorneys regularly turned up in the daisy farming business, I might agree that there was a message being sent. As it is, the message is that unless you are extraordinarily unfortunate in picking your victim, you can do any-damn-thing at all.

Chances are better than fair that anyone who borrows trouble, although morally right, will get his or her head handed to them afterwards.

Mark, you're preaching to the choir: I'm a former policeman, remember? That system isn't going to change all at once, but getting removed from office for misconduct is not something easily overcomed. Should he be getting stroked in a prison cell? Hell ya! But our legal system doesn't change that fast. It takes getting enough people pissed at one time to actually put their foot down. But don;t think that went un-noticed by the DA community.

[Mark@Sea]

Ah, I'm not jumping your case, Jewell; it just really chaps my hindparts when I see these cases, and the DA goes on to higher political office instead of federal prison.

Once is too many. There was a recent "uprising" against DA's being untouchable, and 'amazingly', many state AG's jumped in, defending the prosecutors immunity from liability for knowingly violating law and decency.

Kind of made me want to check the going price for good rope.

[E4 No More]

Ah, I'm not jumping your case, Jewell; it just really chaps my hindparts when I see these cases, and the DA goes on to higher political office instead of federal prison.

Once is too many. There was a recent "uprising" against DA's being untouchable, and 'amazingly', many state AG's jumped in, defending the prosecutors immunity from liability for knowingly violating law and decency.

Kind of made me want to check the going price for good rope.

When I realized that we have a legal system rather than a justice system it started my burn-out leading to a career change. The courts get away with what they do because they piss-off a small percentage of the population at a time. I hope the Duke case starts us on a change, but it will have to stay prevalent in our society's collective mind for it to truly happen.

[Mark@Sea]

I'd say the chief aim of our criminal justice system is to keep criminal lawyers and judges gainfully employed.

A corollary of that understanding is the belief that if there is any chance at all you could be prosecuting for using your carry piece in the defense of others, you will be.

After all, the DA, police and courts have nothing to lose in the attempt.

[gunrat]

Massad Ayoob, a leading figure and author in the handgun community, posted some self-defense rules regarding concealed carry: paraphrased here, "If you can carry, always carry". You need to have solidly in your mind WHY and for whom you carry, but, no doubt, carrying whenever possible increases your chances of preventing a tragedy.

[Guest Drewsett]

I haven't recieved my HCP yet, but I am in agreement with most here that I do not feel an obligation to protect and if I can get me and mine out safely that will be my first course of action.

That said, I have long considered becoming an LEO...but it is very unfortunate that the income potential is quite low compared to other careers that I find attractive and have the proper skill sets for. I'm sure I could be just fine and able to provide for my family and our financial security through wise management of investments made with the savings from a detective's salary or more...but it would take me quite some time to get there...and that's assuming I can play workplace politics well.

That's basically a long way of saying I'm probably not going to be an LEO...which is why I'll be finding the nearest exit in a holdup style situation. An active shooter situation would be a little different. I would fire on the shooter from a position of cover (if possible) with a clear, quick avenue of retreat. Best case scenario is of course a one shot kill, but the likely scenario is that the shooter will be either drawn in my direction (which will be outside as quickly as possible so LEO's can bring weapons to bear immediately upon arrival), will book a retreat even quicker than me, or will end his own life. I would prefer the first or the last two scenarios, but if I could successfully draw him outside and put him down then I'd count that one as a win too.

Of course no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy and I'm sure when SHTF all of my musings will probably go right out the window.

[ncomarc]

"We must all fear evil men, but there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."

I hope I'm strong enough to act and handle situations in a way that my consciance will be clear.

[Mark@Sea]

It isn't indifference, it is an alergy to bankruptcy, bubba, and bars on the windows.

All too real an outcome in many situations, even if your intentions are good, the results are satisfactory, innocent lives are saved, and the police think you're a hero. All it takes is an ambitious prosecutor.

I know of a case of road rage in which a pair of newlyweds were chased and fired upon for more than 20 miles. When they were finally cornered by three bikers who stated their intent to "kill you ********, he fired twice - first in the air, and then at the armed man charging him and his wife, killing him. Police were on the scene almost instantly thereafter, and arrested the other two bikers with their weapons. The dead biker had a weapon in his hand. Two of them, including the stiff, were known to have attempted the murder of a police officer.

The county prosecutor directed his arrest that night on charges of first degree murder.

He was lucky - he was found not guilty at trial, and it only cost him in the neighborhood of 100,000. This was twenty some years ago - wonder what it would cost today?

[trblmkr13]

It isn't indifference, it is an alergy to bankruptcy, bubba, and bars on the windows.

All too real an outcome in many situations, even if your intentions are good, the results are satisfactory, innocent lives are saved, and the police think you're a hero. All it takes is an ambitious prosecutor.

I know of a case of road rage in which a pair of newlyweds were chased and fired upon for more than 20 miles. When they were finally cornered by three bikers who stated their intent to "kill you ********, he fired twice - first in the air, and then at the armed man charging him and his wife, killing him. Police were on the scene almost instantly thereafter, and arrested the other two bikers with their weapons. The dead biker had a weapon in his hand. Two of them, including the stiff, were known to have attempted the murder of a police officer.

The county prosecutor directed his arrest that night on charges of first degree murder.

He was lucky - he was found not guilty at trial, and it only cost him in the neighborhood of 100,000. This was twenty some years ago - wonder what it would cost today?

Amazing what some DA's have the audacity to do

[E4 No More]

DA's are all about the conviction rate; not justice. Having talked to various DA's as a policeman they develop the same guilty until proven innocent attitude some police fall into. I was strong about the death penalty until I saw how our system really works, and I'm not at all surprised to see many convicts getting their convictions overturned with DNA testing. Then add on that the lcoal governments use their courts for revenue generation, and you really don't stand a chance unless it's clear-cut: but you will pay out the nose and lose anyways.

[Guest 2HOW]

Why people carry guns

[Guest oldsmobile98]

Good to read everyone's responses. I will say this: whatever you decide is what you had better train for. Which reminds me, I need more training (donations accepted).

The General Assembly has graciously "solved" this dilemma for me for the time being, since I live in a playground for criminals (gun-free zone). It's just me and my CRKT on campus.

[Oh Shoot]

...It's just me and my CRKT on campus.

If they ever want to press the point, that's a felony too!

- OS

[JAB]

"We must all fear evil men, but there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."

At the risk of coming across as a smart-alec, that sounds like a real nice quote to have engraved on a tombstone.

[gunner]

I am in no way obligated to protect anyone other than myself and my family. I have no hero complex.

+1