Obligation to Carry?

[JReedEsq]

I'm obligated to protect myself. I am not obligated to protect any "sheep". Feeling obligated to protect random people with your HCP is a dangerous line of thinking.

+1 that. There is too great a risk of misinterpreting an interaction between strangers. I'm only obligated to protect myself and my family.

[Fallguy]

I do feel obligated to protect myself and my family. I do this in part by carrying 99% of the time in addition to other measures.

I do not feel an obligation to protect others, but that is not to say I would never get involved.

[Angus]

"Obligation" to protect puts you in a different place mentally when you carry, IMHO.

Sometimes I carry, sometimes I do not.

I personally do not go anywhere that I feel unsafe. I grew up in NY state, in a city a little bigger than Nashville, and have been in some bad situations....life experience teaches you alot I guess?

I feel obligated to protect no one else but myself and my family. As has been brought up, I would not stand by and watch as a BG opens fire, but I do not enter every situation thinking" who has a gun, who might be the weakest here, who do I need to look out for"...man talk about a long f***** day!!

This is why LEO's are way underpaid!! Thanks to all the LEO's here that do what you do for the "sheep"....as has been termed.

Angus

[1gewehr]

I am a bit bothered by the reference to non-carrying folks as 'sheep'. This is a dangerous mindset to allow yourself into. Those others at Wally World, Taco Hell, and other places you go are your friends, neighbors, and otherwise just (relatively) normal people. They attend your local churches, have kids in school, pay taxes, and many even vote.

Getting a carry permit, firearm, and training is a pretty substantial investment in time, hassle, and money. Most people don't see it as being as useful as a driver's license, so they don't get one. Does this make them 'sheep'? Does this make them not worth helping if their lives are in jeopardy?

As a Christian, I see it as my duty to help others when they need it. There is a difference between looking for trouble and being prepared for it. I carry for the same reason I have fire extinguishers. There are threats to my safety and the safety of others out there. And I prefer to be able to decide if my help is needed than stand by helplessly. If you had a fire extinguisher in your car and saw another car on the side of the road with flames licking from underneath, would you stop and help? I would, and have done so. I'm no 'hero'. But I hate the feeling of being helpless. THAT is why I carry.

[Bubba0031]

I may be wrong but I don't beleive that a LEO is actually "obligated" to protect anyone other than him/her self.

[Volzfan]

To the OP, I watched some of Nutnfancy's Sheepdog video and he refers more to plane crashes and accidents like that than he does having HCP holders jump into bad situations to save the sheep.

I would think that most guys here would help if they were in situations similar to his discussion. He made a comment about Flight 93 and how the "Sheepdogs" on that flight took over the plane and even though they all died, they still saved the sheep on the ground and no one on the ground was killed. He then said that real sheepdogs would say "I wish I had been on that plane". How stupid was that! The people that he describe only find themselves in situations where they can help. They don't spend their days searching for them.

I think that if any of us were to also find ourselves in situations where we can stop a VT shooter then we would do it (OOPS! Gun Free Zone). OK then a Mall shooting, (most Mall's are GFZ's too). OK a guys starts shooting up a Wally World and we are right there within 20 or 30 ft of the shooter then I believe that any of us would do all that we could to take him out.

[Volzfan]

I may be wrong but I don't beleive that a LEO is actually "obligated" to protect anyone other than him/her self.

The SCOTUS said it's not their job to protect us.

[Guest HexHead]

Most everyone has the option to carry and protect themselves. If they don't feel their life (and the lives of their families) is worth protecting, far be it for me to second guess them. I won't lift a finger "to protect the sheep". Chances are they're liberals, and better off dead anyway. Well, so much for obligation.

I'd say I'm carrying 95+% of the time now. And it's probably higher than that.

[Angus]

Heh...so much for "Protect and Serve" as far as DC is concerned

[G27]

The SCOTUS said it's not their job to protect us.

They recently (2005) ruled it wasn't the LEO's responsibility to protect the individual (Castle Rock vs. Gonzales).

That being said, your point stands - we shouldn't rely on LEO's alone to protect us.

[Guest Gawain]

Holy cow! This has gotten interesting!

There was this lady. She testified before a Senate Committee (I think that was what it was). She was living in Texas and although there wasn't a law against it, law enforcement was highly critical of individuals carrying into a restaurant. This lady left her pistol in her car while she, her dad and mom went into a restaurant to eat. A very crazy individual came in and began killing people. The lady said she knew that if she was carrying she could have stopped him. He finally got around to shooting her dad, after shooting a bunch of others. There was a point where she and her mom could have escaped, her mom wouldn't leave but went to stay by her husband. The crazy gunman then blew her head off execution style. This lady lost both her parents because she wasn't carrying in a Texas restaurant. (this is all on youtube... I'll go find it and post the url to the video in another post)

I guess I could refine my question. Should you be carrying in a situation like this one?

Personally..... I would take any chance (with my own life) to save another person's life in a situation where I was armed and a crazy person came into a restaurant shooting people. In my humble opinion (just my opinion).... anyone who has a handgun carry permit that would run away in order to save themselves in that particular situation should not carry a firearm.

Craig

Edited January 25, 2010 by Gawain

[Guest HexHead]

They recently (2005) ruled it wasn't the LEO's responsibility to protect the individual (Castle Rock vs. Gonzales).

That being said, your point stands - we shouldn't rely on LEO's alone to protect us.

Law enforcement ONLY has an obligation to protect you if you are in custody.

[Guest HexHead]

Holy cow! This has gotten interesting!

There was this lady. She testified before a Senate Committee (I think that was what it was). She was living in Texas and although there wasn't a law against it, law enforcement was highly critical of individuals carrying into a restaurant. This lady left her pistol in her car while she, her dad and mom went into a restaurant to eat. A very crazy individual came in and began killing people. The lady said she knew that if she was carrying she could have stopped him. He finally got around to shooting her dad, after shooting a bunch of others. There was a point where she and her mom could have escaped, her mom wouldn't leave but went to stay by her husband. The crazy gunman then blew her head off execution style. This lady lost both her parents because she wasn't carrying in a Texas restaurant. (this is all on youtube... I'll go find it and post the url to the video in another post)

I guess I could refine my question. Should you be carrying in a situation like this one?

Personally..... I would take any chance (with my own life) to save another person's life in a situation where I was armed and a crazy person came into a restaurant shooting people. In my humble opinion (just my opinion).... anyone who has a handgun carry permit that would run away in order to save themselves in that particular situation should not carry a firearm.

Craig

That was the infamous Luby's Cafeteria shooting, and the woman you are referring to went on to become a state legislator and got concealed carry passed in Texas. And law enforcement wasn't just "highly critical" about carrying into a restaurant, it was illegal.

In that situation, I would shoot. Not to protect the others but because if some guy is shooting up a restaurant I'm dining at (with my family), MY (ours) life is in danger.

[Guest Gawain]

Here, I found it. Dr. Susanna Gratia Hupp was the lady. I got some (well most) of the particulars wrong in the previous post.. LOL.. but the video still makes the point I was trying to make, so unsuccessfully.

I stood up and cheered the first time I heard this video! I think it is worth watching. especially the way she destroyed the congressional panel who I believe were Brady supporters.

Yeah, it was good to watch this video again. Susan's dad was unarmed but charged the man anyway because he was shooting people in the cafeteria and he just couldn't stand by and do nothing. I am like Susan's dad, I would have to do something!

Edited January 25, 2010 by Gawain

[bronco302]

If the situation was as clear cut as you have been using and I were alone then I hope I would do my best to end it. If I were with my family and had no way to get them out I would not abandon them to run off to be a hero. My ground would be in front of them alone.

Joe W.

[Guest Gawain]

If the situation was as clear cut as you have been using and I were alone then I hope I would do my best to end it. If I were with my family and had no way to get them out I would not abandon them to run off to be a hero. My ground would be in front of them alone.

Joe W.

OK Joe.. me too......

Craig

[JAB]

In my humble opinion (just my opinion).... anyone who has a handgun carry permit that would run away in order to save themselves in that particular situation should not carry a firearm.

Craig

I carry whenever and wherever possible/legal. I carry when I am at home and when my wife asked me about that, I replied that I would look pretty dumb carrying a gun to Walmart and everywhere else only to be killed when someone broke into the house because my gun was put away in another room. Unfortunately, I cannot legally carry at work nor can I legally have a firearm in my vehicle at work, meaning that I do not have a firearm available for the trip from home to work and back. One of the very first things I do when I arrive home from work is arm myself whether we are going back out or not. It isn't really that I feel any 'obligation' to carry, though, so much as I figure, "I can so why shouldn't I?" If I have it and don't need it, no big deal but if I need it and don't have it then I'll be SOL. Anyhow, although my situation means that I don't always have my firearm handy I also do not expect strangers to jump in and endanger their own lives to protect mine if something were to happen when I do not have a firearm.

I got my HCP so that I can protect myself, my family and any close friends that might be with me. I got it to increase the chances that I will go home alive at the end of the day and that I will continue to be there to protect my wife, etc. I did not get it to protect strangers. Heck, being that my reasoning for having an HCP is that having a carry weapon may extend my life then, as opening fire would make me an immediate target, it would actually be counterproductive to my reasons for getting my HCP to become involved in a situation where lead is/might be flying if I can get myself and my family out without needing to use my own weapon.

Using the 'if you were in McDonald's and someone opened fire' scenario, it would honestly depend. If the shooter were across the building, for instance, and it was likely that I could get myself and my family out a different entrance without becoming involved in a firefight then we are out of there. I can live with leaving strangers to be shot a whole heck of a lot better than I can live with being dead - or getting my family shot by drawing the shooter's attention to the area where I and my family are. See, think of it this way, the 'crazy shooter' probably has multiple handguns and/or a long gun. He might even be wearing some kind of body armor (homemade or commercial.) The likelihood that I am going to 'drop' him with one shot isn't very high. Therefore, by shooting - even if I get a clear shot and actually hit him what with all the people running around and all the confusion - chances are he will still be able to continue firing and I have now made myself/my family target number 1. No, thanks. I got my HCP to increase the chances that I and my loved ones will survive a bad situation - I refuse to decrease those chances by becoming involved if I don't have to.

Think of it this way; to use your own analogy, shepherds and sheepdogs protect their own flocks. They don't go around feeling obligated to protect everyone else's. If in stopping a 'pretador' from harming the people I consider part of my 'flock' I end up protecting someone else's 'flock', as well, all the better. However, I have no obligation to play shepherd to anyone else's flock and I will not bring about greater risk to me and mine to save someone else's flock.

Yes, getting a handgun carry permit does cost money, time and a bit of hassle. However, I have expended the time, money and hassle to obtain one and anyone else can do so just as well as I did. If a stranger chooses not to do so, well, it's their funeral - I won't make it mine.

In my opinion (just my opinion) people who believe that their HCP makes them some kind of guardian of society, protector of the innocent and bringer of justice (aka 'sheepdog') might want to consider wearing a Batman costume instead of carrying a firearm.

Edited January 25, 2010 by JAB

[Guest Caveman]

I am a bit bothered by the reference to non-carrying folks as 'sheep'. This is a dangerous mindset to allow yourself into. Those others at Wally World, Taco Hell, and other places you go are your friends, neighbors, and otherwise just (relatively) normal people. They attend your local churches, have kids in school, pay taxes, and many even vote.

Getting a carry permit, firearm, and training is a pretty substantial investment in time, hassle, and money. Most people don't see it as being as useful as a driver's license, so they don't get one. Does this make them 'sheep'? Does this make them not worth helping if their lives are in jeopardy?

As a Christian, I see it as my duty to help others when they need it. There is a difference between looking for trouble and being prepared for it. I carry for the same reason I have fire extinguishers. There are threats to my safety and the safety of others out there. And I prefer to be able to decide if my help is needed than stand by helplessly. If you had a fire extinguisher in your car and saw another car on the side of the road with flames licking from underneath, would you stop and help? I would, and have done so. I'm no 'hero'. But I hate the feeling of being helpless. THAT is why I carry.

I refer to most of the general public as sheep whether they own a gun or not because that's what they are. Having said that, I wouldn't run into a burning building to save a person who was DUMB enough not to have a fire extinguisher in their house, would you? For me it would depend on the situation, but to be honest, if you don't prepare yourself you don't deserve my help whether I help or not.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Caveman

[Mike.357]

the only reason I have a gun on me is for the purpose of helping myself and my loved ones make safe escape from whereever I feel imminently fearful for our lives. If I have to shoot at someone I am sure I will be herding and retreating as I do it.

[Guest db99wj]

First priority for me is....me and my wife and 4 kids. If they are not with me, my first priority is me, so I can go home to my family. If there is an active shooter that is shooting people, I don't know what my number is, I will do whatever, to protect me and my family, which includes shooting, as Mike said, while I'm hearding and retreating me and my family out of harms way.

This is not saying, if the opportunity comes up and I can do something to eliminate the threat, I won't do it, because I will, but I won't leave my family unprotected, whether that means if they are there and I am protecting them, or protecting them from losing their father and husband.

There are also to many "What if's" to really say what you would or would not do. You might have good intentions, but when the SHTF, you don't really know what you are going to do. You hope your training takes over and will get you through, but until you are in a situation, you really just don't know.

[Mark@Sea]

Me and mine. In any other case, the situation would have to be very clear cut - such as the guy pouring gasoline on a woman in a parking lot (stopped by a permit holder when he pulled out a lighter) or the guy stabbing the woman in wal-mart (shot to death by a permit holder after repeated warnings).

All those scenarios where you are in a public place with someone shooting people randomly, then you are in danger, correct?

Sorry, no link, but there was a guy in Texas, stopped at a mall to buy ammo (he was on the way to the range). He witnessed a man shoot a woman in the parking lot, then stand over her and shoot her in the head. The good guy fired several shots, the killer made it several blocks before bleeding out and parking his vehicle against a phone pole.

The good guy subsequently spent several years getting pronged by the local DA, who eventually got a grand jury to indict, although he was found not guilty at trial.

Cost to the DA (democrat with political ambitions): zero. Cost to the guy that stopped a killer? Hundreds of thousands in legal bills.

I have no intention of destroying my (and my familys') life to save a stranger. I'm NOT Batman.

[Guest stovepipe]

Mark@sea hit the nail on the head. +1

[E4 No More]

Me and mine. In any other case, the situation would have to be very clear cut - such as the guy pouring gasoline on a woman in a parking lot (stopped by a permit holder when he pulled out a lighter) or the guy stabbing the woman in wal-mart (shot to death by a permit holder after repeated warnings).

All those scenarios where you are in a public place with someone shooting people randomly, then you are in danger, correct?

Sorry, no link, but there was a guy in Texas, stopped at a mall to buy ammo (he was on the way to the range). He witnessed a man shoot a woman in the parking lot, then stand over her and shoot her in the head. The good guy fired several shots, the killer made it several blocks before bleeding out and parking his vehicle against a phone pole.

The good guy subsequently spent several years getting pronged by the local DA, who eventually got a grand jury to indict, although he was found not guilty at trial.

Cost to the DA (democrat with political ambitions): zero. Cost to the guy that stopped a killer? Hundreds of thousands in legal bills.

I have no intention of destroying my (and my familys') life to save a stranger. I'm NOT Batman.

Fortunately, in Tennessee you can defend another, and thus covered from the bill...if I recall correctly.

[saintsfanbrian]

If the person is not an immediate threat to me or my family I would say it is not my responsibility to protect you. Equate that to - We are in a restaurant and some one starts shooting - this is an immediate threat to me and my family as I am eating there.

I am walking down the street and hear shots inside a restaurant - I am not in an immediate threat - I am not running in to stop it. I will find cover and call the police and wait to get a description if I can until the police show up. Once they do I am out of there back to my family.

[Fallguy]

Fortunately, in Tennessee you can defend another, and thus covered from the bill...if I recall correctly.

If you are sued in civil court by a person you shot and it is ruled as a justifiable shoot, you can recover (which means you pay and then get back from them) any expenses in defending the suit.

There is no protection in TN law for the expeses incurred in defending yourself in a criminal trial if you are found not guilty.

Also if you injure and innoncent 3rd party or cause 3rd party property damage there is no protection in a civil suit.