3 Gun Match

[tnroadrunner]

The Henry County Gun Club, Puryear, TN will have a 3 Gun match on Nov. 24 th. Their web site is www.hcgc.net Looks like a great match.

[MCFooter]

Have they established a plan for when they will have the 3 Gun Matches?

Looks like 2nd Sat for IDPA and 4th Sat for T3G.

It's a good ways for me but I would like to make it sometime.

[tnroadrunner]

They always had the IDPA the 2nd Sat and will continue. It looks like they are going with the 4th Sat for 3 gun.

It's like me going to Manchester a good 2 hour drive. Takes me an hour and twenty minutes to HCGC, but well worth the trip.

[nb forrest]

Are they going to have a 10 round limit for the rifle?

[tnroadrunner]

nb that's what I've heard, but things can change.

[nb forrest]

I hope they change that. 10 rounds in an AR, sounds like a Kalifornia gun.

[MCFooter]

I guess it's their ball and they can play the game however they like. Below are some of the IDPA 3 Gun rule proposals. It gets worse than just 10 round mag limits. Either way it's trigger time and I will atleast try it if someone close to me makes it happen. I think Outlaw 3 Gun is the place to be with basic IMG Rules and IDPA scoring but YMMV.

http://p075.ezboard.com/fidpaforumfrm39.showMessage?topicID=14.topic

Originally Posted by IDPA 3-gun - Proposal 5

A continuation of this series of proposals, with new stuff added that we have touched on briefly.

This is just the ramblings of one guy. It probably doesn't represent what HQ is thinking, or even what anyone else is thinking. It is a straw man to get y'all to comment and say what makes sense to you.

It hopefully represents what would make a good defensive multi-gun sport. It does not represent the way my equipment is currently set up, because they were set up for a sport with a different purpose.

In the long run, say 10 years down the road, the equipment we all have today, and what we are used to doing in 3-gun matches will not matter. Getting a good set of rules that represents defensive use of pistols, rifles and shotguns will matter in 10 years.

Enough blab:

IDPA DEFENSIVE MULTI-GUN

PROVISIONAL RULES

Proposal 5, Ken Reed 10/26/2007

Course Of Fire Rationale

All CsOF must either simulate a possible real life scenario or test skills that might reasonably be used in a real life self-defense confrontation. If you cannot honestly say, “that could happen,†it probably will not make a good IDPA Multi-Gun stage. We realize that not many self-defense shootings will involve multiple long guns and handguns, but the shooting positions and challenges must be kept reasonable. (borrowed from the writings of Ted Murphy)

SSG: STOCK SERVICE GUN

RIFLE: 5.56 x 45 mm ( .223 ) or larger, with iron sights only

SHOTGUN: Pump only, 12 or 20 gauge, with iron sights only

PISTOL: Any IDPA Legal Pistol or Revolver using IDPA legal capacity

ESG: ENHANCED SERVICE GUN

RIFLE: 5.56 x 45 mm ( .223 ) or larger, with optional single optic

SHOTGUN: Pump or semi-auto, 12 or 20 gauge, with iron sights only

PISTOL: Any IDPA Legal Pistol or Revolver using IDPA legal capacity

HWG: HEAVY WEIGHT GUN

RIFLE: 7.62 x 51 mm ( .308 ) caliber or larger, with optional single optic

SHOTGUN: Pump or semi-auto, 12 gauge only, with iron sights only

PISTOL: CDP or ESR using IDPA legal capacity

LWG: LIGHT WEIGHT GUN

RIFLE: 9 x 19 mm caliber or larger, including the .30 carbine/.30 M1 round, with optional single optic

SHOTGUN: Pump or semi-auto, 20 or 12 gauge, with iron sights only

PISTOL: Any IDPA Legal Pistol or Revolver using IDPA legal capacity

General Rifle Rules

· 10 round limit in mag, 11 rounds max in gun

· No bi-pods

· Gun mounted ammo is allowed, 10 rounds max per magazine

· Redi-Mags, mag cinches, butt cuffs and like products are allowed

· Extra ammo, 10 rounds max per magazine, may be carried on the body in pockets, carriers or in a bag or satchel. However the ammo and carriers can only be acquired after the start signal

· Compensators and Flash Hiders allowed, 1" diameter or less

· Steel targets will not be placed closer than 100 yards

· A majority of shots should occur within 50 yards, but an occasional target out to 100 yards should be encouraged

· Rifles may have lights attached before the start signal, but must be turned on after the start signal.

· Electrically powered optics will not be turned on before the start signal

· No Laser aiming devices

· The configuration of the rifle will not be altered during a match. No parts or accessories will be swapped, added, or removed during a match. Variable power optics will start all stages set to the lowest power setting, but may be adjusted after the start signal.

General Shotgun Rules

· 5 rounds max in mag, 6 rounds max in gun

· Gun mounted ammo is allowed, 6 rounds max on gun

· Side-saddles, forearm and butt cuffs, and like products are allowed

· Extra ammo may be carried on the body in pockets, carriers or in a bag or satchel. However the ammo and carriers can only be acquired after the start signal

· No compensators

· No speed loaders or box magazines

· Steel will not be placed closer than 10 yards when using shot shells

· Steel will not be placed closer than 30 yards when using slugs

· Shot shells will not be used with paper targets

· Only lead pellet shot shells are allowed, including buck shot

· Different ammunition, slugs or shot needed in a course of fire may not be pre-staged in the magazine. The magazine must be loaded with one size and type of ammo at the start.

· A majority of shots should occur within 35 yards, but an occasional target out to 75 yards with slugs should be encouraged

· IDPA rules on maximum percentage of steel targets in a stage, do not apply to shots with a shotgun

· Rifles may have lights attached before the start signal, but must be turned on after the start signal.

· No Laser aiming devices

· The configuration of the shotgun will not be altered during a match. No parts or accessories will be swapped, added, or removed during a match. Adjustable chokes will not be adjusted after the start signal or in between stages.

General Handgun Rules

· If a shotgun or rifle becomes inoperable due to an un-clearable malfunction, breakage, or running out of ammunition, the handgun may be used to complete a stage.

· All IDPA rules apply to IDPA DMG unless otherwise noted in this document, example: reloading rules for pistols will also apply to rifles, example: retain the magazine if there is a round in the chamber, example: use cover if available for shooting and reloading, etc.

General COF Rules

· 18 round maximum per string for pistol only or rifle only strings, 10 rounds for shotgun only strings.

· 23 round maximum per string if two firearms are used in a single string

· 28 round maximum per string if three firearms are used in a single string

· Rifles and shotguns must have a sling if they are carried on the body while another firearm is shot

Classification

· There will be one Classification per shooter for IDPA DMG. A modified IDPA Classifier, that includes rifle, shotgun and pistol is shown below.

A. Stage One -Shotgun.

Position w - 15 yards, Position x – 25 yards

(Bianchi style barricade required.)

String Position Instructions Shots

1 w Load shotgun with shot shells. Start with shotgun pointed down range at a 45º angle, safety may be off, but finger must be out of trigger guard. Fire one (1) shot at each popper T4-T5. 3

2 w Load shotgun with shot shells. Start with shotgun pointed down range at a 45º angle, safety may be off, but finger must be out of trigger guard. Kneel and fire one (1) shot at each popper T4-T5. 3

3 x (Load 3 slugs MAX in shotgun.) Start with shotgun at low ready pointed down range at a 45º angle, safety may be off, but finger must be out of trigger guard. Fire one (1) shot at each paper T1-T3 around either side of the barricade, reload with slugs, and fire one (1) shot at each paper T1-T3 around the other side of the barricade. 6

(When stage drawings are produced, place poppers beside T1, T2 and T3. Place barricade at 25 yards from targets.)

B. Stage Two -Pistol.

10 Yards

String Position Instructions Shots

1 2 Draw and advance toward targets, fire 2 shots at each T1 - T3 while moving forward (all shots must be fired while moving) there is a forward fault line at the 5yd line for this string. 6

2 3 Draw and retreat from targets, fire 2 shots at each T1 - T3 while retreating (all shots must be fired while moving). 6

3 2 (Load 6 rounds MAX. in pistol) Start back to targets, turn and fire 2 shots at each T1 - T3, reload from slide lock and fire 2 shots at each T1 - T3. 12

4 2 Draw and fire 2 shots at each T1 - T3 “STRONG†hand only. 6

(Same as IDPA Classifier Stage Two)

C. Stage Three –Carbine or Rifle.

Position y - 45 yards, Position z – 40 yards

(Bianchi style barricade and 55-gallon Barrel required.)

String Position Instructions Shots

1 y Start with carbine/rifle pointed down range at a 45º angle, safety may be off, but finger must be out of trigger guard. Fire 2 shots at each T1 - T3 from either side of the barricade, TACTICAL LOAD and fire 2 shots at each T1 - T3 from the opposite side of barricade. 12

2 y Start with carbine/rifle pointed down range at a 45º angle, safety may be off, but finger must be out of trigger guard.Fire 2 shots at each T1 - T3 from either side of the barricade, TACTICAL LOAD and advance to Position #z, fire 2 shots at each T1 - T3 from around either side of 55-gallon barrel. 12

3 z Start with carbine/rifle pointed down range at a 45º angle, safety may be off, but finger must be out of trigger guard. Kneel, and fire 2 shots at each T1 - T3 from around either side of 55-gallon barrel. 6

(DMG Stage 3 is much like IDPA Classifier Stage 3, but the distances have been increased.)

Note: A Bianchi Style Barricade wall is twenty-four (24) inches wide by six (6) feet tall; shooting box is twenty-four (24) inches wide and does not necessarily have to have a back to it.

Note: A standard steel Popper target is forty two (42) inches tall with a 12†diameter center section.

Rationale For This Proposal:

IDPA HG has published a set of Provisional IDPA DMG rules, and asked for suggestions and comments. This proposal is a suggestion to stimulate discussion.

First, the ever popular round limits. Without round limits like seen above, the COF rationale will be followed by very few, and the "defensive" tone of this sport will be forever lost. It seems that the round limits and magazine loading limits have some to do with California's laws and the laws of foreign countries, but are just as important for keeping IDPA DMG true to its purpose. That said, the 18 round maximum per string in the IDPA HQ’s Provisional rules is amended to allow a few more rounds when two and three guns are used in a string.

I can see what others are saying about allowing more rounds in a magazine and more rounds in a stage, and I have been wrestling with this myself. However, I have come to think this single change would then lead to this sport to be exactly like other 3-gun matches. That is, not defensive in nature at all. Most people simply will not design defensive in nature, limited round count stages if there is no rule.

Imagine if IDPA changed to a 35 round maximum round count rule for pistol matches. Instead of the mostly 15-18 round stages we have today, you would start seeing mostly 30-35 round stages. Not a bad thing, but probably not "it could happen" type defensive pistol stages. It would be a hose fest. We already have several handgun sports like that. IDPA is what it is, because of the 18 round maximum imposed, and the max magazine loading rules.

It seems that the world does not need another 3-gun sport like the ones we already have, they are excellent at what they do. Without the rules on round count, that will be what we get, just another one like we already have.

The world may not even need a defensive oriented 3-gun sport, but that is what IDPA HQ wants to find out. It seems that IDPA HQ is hoping to attract new shooters to 3-gun with a simpler, less expensive sport. This is similar to the way they attracted handgun shooters to IDPA with a simpler less expensive sport than existed before. The formula is known to work.

Second, ammo for reloading. When a long gun is used for self-defense, the defender will probably not take time to put on a tactical vest. They may however pickup ammo with their gun and carry it along with them or transfer it to the body. It seems that on-gun ammo is a logical choice for self-defense as well.

Third, equipment divisions. How many is too many, and how restrictive should they be? Four is a lot, but that number seems to make sense, to give everyone a place to play. SSG is the most basic division, and probably the least expensive equipment wise. ESG is like ESP is today, an experimenters’ playground. HVG is heavy metal, a hard recoiling rifle and handgun with a manually operated shotgun. A testosterone division if you will. LWG is another experimenters’ division. Which includes the easy to shoot carbine that may give up a lot at 50 yards and beyond. Since the .30 carbine has about the same power factor and energy as the .357 Magnum round, it is grouped into LWG.

Fourth, shotgun sights. It seems that very few people have optics on their self-defense shotgun. For whatever reason optics on a shotgun are not popular for self-defense. They may indeed be a competitive advantage, but we are trying to set up self-defense shotguns, not race shotguns.

Fifth, shooter classification. The only thing that seems certain is that there should be one Classification per Mulitgun shooter, not a separate one for each type of firearm. Aggregating these individual classifications together would be arbitrary at best and not useful at worst.

Sixth, when to turn on optics. In an unexpected self-defense situation, a person would have to turn on their electrical optics after they knew something was amiss. Thus it makes sense to have these optics off at the start signal. This may indeed be a competitive disadvantage, much like it would be a disadvantage at home.

Your thoughts, objections, suggestions and comments are why we are here!

Edited to partially fix the mangling of the classifier table.

+-+ E-Mail: freeidaho at yahoo dot com

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|---| Personal web site to display ideas:

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|Idaho-| My rifle, pistol, shotgun, and IDPA club:

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[tnroadrunner]

Thanks MC for the info, I heard this was out but didn't know it was online.

[molonlabetn]

The mag limits would allow folks with tube-fed lever action rifles (such as my 1894) to be somewhat competetive in the light-gun category. That was probably not the intent, but I would be interested in attempting it, if these rules were in place.

[tnroadrunner]

I shall see how things go on Sat. and will report back.

[nb forrest]

I got an e-mail saying we would be allowed to top off our mags and that after the first of the year they would be following USPSA 3gun rules, which is a good thing imo.

[tnroadrunner]

nb I heard that also but the USPSA part I don't understand yet, but will ask tomorrow.

[nb forrest]

HCGC put on a very good match. Fun and challenging stages and no 10 round mag limit. I hope they put this on every month like they are talking about.

[tnroadrunner]

Yes nb I agree with you had lots of fun but sure wore this old guys butt off. I need to get into better shape.

[MCFooter]

How much was the entry fee and are the scores going to be posted?

[nb forrest]

$15 entry, I'm still looking for the scores

[tnroadrunner]

Well guess we all this would happen, nb forrest came in first. Congrats Matt.

[tnroadrunner]

Trying to figure out how to post the scores and as soon as I do they will be posted.

[tnroadrunner]

HCGC will hold off on their 3 gun matches until Feb. because of holidays and hunting season. I will post when matches will be held as soon as I know.

[MCFooter]

Trying to figure out how to post the scores and as soon as I do they will be posted.

If you need some help posting let me know.

[tnroadrunner]

November 3 Gun Match

November 24, 2007 Full Results - All Participants

Specific Results:

Most Accurate

Home

High Law Enforcement: Clyde Sulcer SSR - Unclassified 184.13 (13)

High Press: Scott Rob SSR - Unclassified 239.95 (12)

High Distinguished Senior: Robert Graf SSR - Novice 482.76 (51)

Most Accurate: Scott Rob SSR - Unclassified 239.95 (12)

Numbers in (parenthesis) are target points down

[tnroadrunner]

Well that did not work.

[nb forrest]

Well guess we all this would happen, nb forrest came in first. Congrats Matt.

Thanks, it was luck and the fact that "Mac":D Footer wasn't there to beat me.

[MCFooter]

Thanks, it was luck and the fact that "Mac":D Footer wasn't there to beat me.

Watch it there Forrest it's "MC" and Congradulations.

For proof see this link. I didn't have any luck Inserting the image either.

http://mcfooter.atspace.com/HCGC%20Nov%2007.htm

[tnroadrunner]

I may of come in last but my points down wasn't as much as Robert's. Of course he has an excuse for it...........LOL