List of places allowing HCP and banning HCP

[Oh Shoot]

...

But you are right in that the city shouldn't be able to have it both ways, they either need to go by current T.C.A. which would mean they would have to pass a resolution or prohibit carry, of go by a pre-'86 ban that bans ALL posession (I assume)

I admit this seems to be a legal inconsistency, but one of the rare ones which favors Knoxville gun owners.

Of course, if anyone wants to emulate Voldemort and make the city follow the (apparent) letter of the law, almost certainly to our detriment, well ...

- OS

[Guest witchdr]

just for reference Wal-Mart's official stance as told to me by corporate HQ in Arkansas is that as long as you have a valid permit and employees and customers don't see it they don't care if you carry there

[Oh Shoot]

just for reference Wal-Mart's official stance as told to me by corporate HQ in Arkansas is that as long as you have a valid permit and employees and customers don't see it they don't care if you carry there

Really?

- OS

[macville]

Well, you might have an argument for that small part of it, but you'd have to glean that nowhere else in Knoxville ordinances is the power granted to have gunshows on city property, and it probably is. I've done all the homework on it I'm gonna, for now.

Did the homework for you as all it took was 5 minutes of reading after using the search term "firearm" in Knoxville Code website. There are NO exceptions in the law. I did notice that they DO still have laws on the books that they are not supposed to (state law overrides them on it), but hey, why be bothered with cleaning up the law, right?

And even if that power isn't specified, taking on the city over the discrepancy could only have one outcome, if any at all, and what do you think THAT would be? Right, banning gun shows in city recreational facilities.

Plus, if a suit were won, it would only be a procedural one, as no damages could be claimed, so all City Council has to do is amend the municipal code to specifically allow gun shows, assuming they care enough to do it, rather than just ban them (a much more likely outcome, IMO).

If you think that it could possibly go the other way, and allow carry all the time on rec properties, then you are smoking some powerful stuff. And further, even if it could, they'd simply repeal that section so that the state statue becomes binding, and then they'd simply have to post the rec properties. And they'd be so pissed by then they'd damn sure post them frequently and compliantly, and maybe ban gun shows in the whole city while they're at it.

What's the difference with the new state law and the old law on the books? Both have fines and jail time, correct? If the old Knoxville law was just a fine, I would bother, but it does so it's really no different.

Here's my issue, the City Council (a majority of them) acted all high-and-mighty over the whole guns in parks issue. But yet, they can sit there and eat their cake by letting gun show happen illegally while collecting building rental fees and taxes. I don't think that's right. They stuck with the old law so they should have to follow it also.

As to what good could come out of it...nothing immediately I figure. But what is there too lose? The old law is still a misdemeanor and can have jail time. Is that much different than the new law. So how would we loose anything? If the gunshows move to another venue, isn't that better as a PRIVATE business is getting the rental fee? The gunshow will find another location (what about the expo center like the rest of the gun shows!)

Here's where I think something better may come in. Say we get the state law changed to must allow local parks. As our stupid (excuse me, gutless) reps and senators have shown, they have this thing about allowing laws pre 1986 to stand. They could keep that in there and Knoxville would still get screwed.

So I don't really think we have anything to lose. We screw the City out of some money, show that we want to uphold the law-unlike the people who write and enforce the laws, and we MAY get park carry after all.

BTW, I don't know what you are smoking, but the city of knoxville can't prohibit gun shows--thank you state law!

It just amazes me that you are fine with people unknowingly (gun show buyers/dealers) committing misdemeanors and not wanting to warn them.

Matthew

PS. How in the HECK did wal-mart come into this conversation?

[Oh Shoot]

...

Did the homework for you as all it took was 5 minutes of reading after using the search term "firearm" in Knoxville Code website. There are NO exceptions in the law.

Did you look at all the codes for usage of public buildings? "firearms" doesn't have to necessarily be mentioned. This would all be under the Public Building Admin stuff. Could just allow whatever they agree to allow. Wouldn't have to mention "dog show" to have a dog show either.

Maybe you should ping:

Bob Polk

Director of Public Assembly Facilities

865-215-1454

bpolk@cityofknoxville.org

Who is listed as the office in charge of the Jacobs Building.

What's the difference with the new state law and the old law on the books? Both have fines and jail time, correct?

As I understand it, local ordinance is just that, an ordinance, not even considered as misdemeanor? Like speeding inside the city limits?

But the state law violation is for sure a Class A misdemeanor, max $2500 and/or 11 months 29 days!

That's pretty significant diff tween fifty bucks and/or 30 days. Plus, I'm guessing a violation of that might pull your HCP, under the "risk of harm to public".

As to what good could come out of it...nothing immediately I figure. But what is there too lose?

A gun show venue.

The old law is still a misdemeanor and can have jail time. Is that much different than the new law.

See above comment.

So how would we loose anything? If the gunshows move to another venue, isn't that better as a PRIVATE business is getting the rental fee? The gunshow will find another location (what about the expo center like the rest of the gun shows!)

Well, I agree that part doesn't much matter I guess.

Here's where I think something better may come in. Say we get the state law changed to must allow local parks. As our stupid (excuse me, gutless) reps and senators have shown, they have this thing about allowing laws pre 1986 to stand. They could keep that in there and Knoxville would still get screwed.

Well, if the legislature DOES allow unbridled carry in parks, they almost certainly WON'T remove the 1986 thing, so what does it matter? Knoxville ain't gonna budge on this, likely EVER. Actually, to my knowledge, there is nothing afoot to change the park carry statue anyway, only the restaurants/booze thing.

BTW, I don't know what you are smoking, but the city of knoxville can't prohibit gun shows--thank you state law!

Reading the statute, I'd say you are right on that. Mea culpa.

It just amazes me that you are fine with people unknowingly (gun show buyers/dealers) committing misdemeanors and not wanting to warn them.

I promise, next show at the Jacobs building, I'm making citizens arrests!

You too?

- OS

[macville]

Did you look at all the codes for usage of public buildings? "firearms" doesn't have to necessarily be mentioned. This would all be under the Public Building Admin stuff. Could just allow whatever they agree to allow. Wouldn't have to mention "dog show" to have a dog show either.

How would the PBA have the authority to circumvent the law? If they did, the law would say that the PBA has the authority to make the rules up in their buildings...but it doesn't.

As I understand it, local ordinance is just that, an ordinance, not even considered as misdemeanor? Like speeding inside the city limits?

But the state law violation is for sure a Class A misdemeanor, max $2500 and/or 11 months 29 days!

That's pretty significant diff tween fifty bucks and/or 30 days. Plus, I'm guessing a violation of that might pull your HCP, under the "risk of harm to public".

I don't know why you say it isn't a misdemeanor. The text you posted seems to say that since there no punishment spelled out in the parks part of the code that it IS a misdemeanor and is it would be upto $50 fine, upto $500 for "administrative cost incident to the correction of the municipal violation" (court/lawyer costs?), AND upto 30 days in jail if they throw the book at you. So it's not at all like a speeding ticket, it's like a misdemeanor! As far as I am concerned 1 month or 12 months are both going to screw up my life pretty much the same.

Well, if the legislature DOES allow unbridled carry in parks, they almost certainly WON'T remove the 1986 thing, so what does it matter? Knoxville ain't gonna budge on this, likely EVER. Actually, to my knowledge, there is nothing afoot to change the park carry statue anyway, only the restaurants/booze thing.

That's what I am saying. If we got the city to either drop the old law and not take up the new one, OR even drop the old and take up the new, we'd be in a better place because once they drop the old law they can never take it back up to fall under the '86 provision in state law. Not to mention that hopefully with gov election soon, we might get a more pro-gun mayor who either will run off all the liberals (too much to hope for) or will encourage more conservatives to run for city council.

Here's my question, is there a way to spin this to put egg on the faces of the anti-gun people and clueless elected officials? To be honest, if this was brought up, all that would happen, I believe, is that Chilhowee would become off-limits and the gun shows would move to another venue. I find it very doubtful that they would bother with a provision because it would make the city council look "pro-gun" and they can't have that. So really, I see nothing but good coming out of it. Screws the city of knoxville out of money, gets more money into private business, and exposes those who don't wish to follow the laws they make.

BTW, does anyone know anything about the new City Council members? Their ads at the election were so vague on how they stand politically that I have no clue if more liberals or more conservatives got elected.

Matthew

[Oh Shoot]

How would the PBA have the authority to circumvent the law? If they did, the law would say that the PBA has the authority to make the rules up in their buildings...but it doesn't.

I meant that the city can determine by ordinance to use a building for an event that otherwise would be a violation, same as the state allows gun shows in an otherwise no gun zone. The state even allows gun shows and hunting on SCHOOL property.

If you really want to know their justification of why they are doing this illegal act, why not get in touch with the guy I mentioned?

I don't know why you say it isn't a misdemeanor. The text you posted seems to say that since there no punishment spelled out in the parks part of the code that it IS a misdemeanor and is it would be upto $50 fine, upto $500 for "administrative cost incident to the correction of the municipal violation" (court/lawyer costs?), AND upto 30 days in jail if they throw the book at you. So it's not at all like a speeding ticket, it's like a misdemeanor! As far as I am concerned 1 month or 12 months are both going to screw up my life pretty much the same.

Well, I don't know if there's a difference between a municipal "50 dollar/30 day" misdemeanor (if that's what it is officially called) and a state misdemeanor or not.

However, the state violation is a Class A misdemeanor, and I don't know about you, but $2500 hurts me more than $50. And in worst case, yeah, I believe I'd rather do 30 days out in Corryton than a year in a state prison.

AND, you WILL lose your HCP for ANY Class A misdemeanor conviction. That's automatic. You lose it for the duration of the sentence, and that includes any probation time. Then you have to petition to get it back, that part is NOT automatic.

So yeah, all in all, I'd say there's quite a diff between the two penalties!

BTW, does anyone know anything about the new City Council members? Their ads at the election were so vague on how they stand politically that I have no clue if more liberals or more conservatives got elected.

I confess I don't. I looked at each of their spiels online, but handgun carry wasn't mentioned by any of them.

I only know that in my district Bob Booker is no longer the rep. He was staunchly anti-gun, period. But then again, looks like most or all of the ones who voted pro-carry are gone, too.

- OS