List of places allowing HCP and banning HCP

[Guest mtsumatt]

This may be somewhere else on the forum, but I haven't seen it. I apologize in advance if this is already posted somewhere...

I am trying to figure out if there is a list of businesses that either allow licensed handgun permit holders to carry in their stores or prohibits this. I am aware of the Government buildings and now, places that serve alcohol again. I think we are still allowed in the state and national parks after the law change. When I first applied for my HCP in 1997, there were a few lists that listed places that had posted that they didn't want HCP holders to carry in their stores. It seems WalMart (before beer was sold) and McDonalds were on this list.

Does a list like this exist today?

[JeffL]

Here: CCW Prohibited Locations - TGO Database

And here:"NO CARRY" or ANTIGUN RESTAURANTS AND BUSINESSES IN TENNESSEE - AR15.COM

And also here: Tennessee Firearms Assoc. Inc. - Banning Properties and Locations

[Motasyco]

You can carry where alcohol is sold but not consumed, like a supermarket or convenience store. You cannot carry where alcohol is sold for on premises consumption. Walmart is a go.

[Guest mtsumatt]

Thanks! It's going to take some memorizing to remember all of those individual places.

[Guest mtsumatt]

You can carry where alcohol is sold but not consumed, like a supermarket or convenience store. You cannot carry where alcohol is sold for on premises consumption. Walmart is a go.

This does make more sense. As long as individual walmarts aren't opting out, this is good.

[Oh Shoot]

This may be somewhere else on the forum, but I haven't seen it. I apologize in advance if this is already posted somewhere...

As per 2007 census, 459,681 total businesses in TN, that would be some kind of list, even just for retail stores.

... I am aware of the Government buildings ..and now, places that serve alcohol again.

Only Federal buildings. State, county, and city govt. buildings must post to prohibit carry just like private businesses.

Only places that serve alcohol for on site consumption are off limits.

I think we are still allowed in the state and national parks after the law change.

Carry in state parks legal for some time now as per state law.

National parks still prohibited until late Feb as per federal law.

When I first applied for my HCP in 1997, there were a few lists that listed places that had posted that they didn't want HCP holders to carry in their stores. It seems WalMart (before beer was sold) and McDonalds were on this list.

WalMarts and McDonalds are not posted.

HTH some,

- OS

[Guest mtsumatt]

Thanks OhShoot!

[ftncityfatboy]

Only Federal buildings. State, county, and city govt. buildings must post to prohibit carry just like private businesses.

so if civic colisium is not posted, although owned and operated by city, it's ok to carry there? any city owned/operated property that is not posted is ok to carry? I thought those types were no-no's

[Oh Shoot]

so if civic colisium is not posted, although owned and operated by city, it's ok to carry there? any city owned/operated property that is not posted is ok to carry? I thought those types were no-no's

Coliseum is probably no go, as I guess falls under the "civic center, recreational building" part of park carry law wording.

All other buildings that I can think of are legal to carry unless posted.

However, the Knoxville City/County building IS posted, for example, if you didn't know.

- OS

[macville]

Coliseum is probably no go, as I guess falls under the "civic center, recreational building" part of park carry law wording.

All other buildings that I can think of are legal to carry unless posted.

However, the Knoxville City/County building IS posted, for example, if you didn't know.

EXCEPT here in Knoxville it WOULD be legal to carry in the Knoxville Civic Coliseum BECAUSE I believe the original ordinance that is currently in place (you know, the $50 fee (fine) for carrying in city parks) doesn't talk about the coliseum! It's in reference to parks, and since the coliseum is not a park, it wouldn't count.

I actually just found a loophole in the law that's pretty plain as day. Under 39-17-1311 section d, a county can not ban handguns from recreation buildings (unless inside a park) under the PARKS law. Section d basically says they can ban legal firearms from PARKS, but it say nothing about rec buildings. However, of course they can still ban them under the posting law just like the city/county building is posted.

What would disable carry (at least right now) most times at the civic coliseum is the fact that they serve alcohol at most events. I really rather carry my gun to ice bears games instead of leaving it in my car downtown at night..not to mention the walk back to the car because I am too cheap to park right next to it.

Matthew

[Oh Shoot]

EXCEPT here in Knoxville it WOULD be legal to carry in the Knoxville Civic Coliseum BECAUSE I believe the original ordinance that is currently in place (you know, the $50 fee (fine) for carrying in city parks) doesn't talk about the coliseum! It's in reference to parks, and since the coliseum is not a park, it wouldn't count.

I actually just found a loophole in the law that's pretty plain as day. Under 39-17-1311 section d, a county can not ban handguns from recreation buildings (unless inside a park) under the PARKS law. Section d basically says they can ban legal firearms from PARKS, but it say nothing about rec buildings. However, of course they can still ban them under the posting law just like the city/county building is posted.

What would disable carry (at least right now) most times at the civic coliseum is the fact that they serve alcohol at most events. I really rather carry my gun to ice bears games instead of leaving it in my car downtown at night..not to mention the walk back to the car because I am too cheap to park right next to it.

Matthew

Well, greenways aren't "parks" either, but they're considered such.

I thought I had the Knoxville ordinance on the box here but can't find it...you?

So, the Coliseum, besides the booze thing, it is NOT posted, compliantly or other?

- OS

[Fallguy]

Only Federal buildings. State, county, and city govt. buildings must post to prohibit carry just like private businesses.- OS

Federal buildings are off-limits per Federal Law even if they are not posted.

[Oh Shoot]

Federal buildings are off-limits per Federal Law even if they are not posted.

Yeah, my syntax was clumsy.

- OS

[Guest nashvegas]

Post offices are off limits.

[macville]

Well, greenways aren't "parks" either, but they're considered such.

I thought I had the Knoxville ordinance on the box here but can't find it...you?

So, the Coliseum, besides the booze thing, it is NOT posted, compliantly or other?

You know, we were told that city greenways were off-limits (and they were just like parks until the law went into effect), but does the city code state that greenways are off-limits? State code makes it very clear that greenways fall under the parks law, but if the local, pre '86 doesn't say "greenways", then I would say you'd have a good fight in court (not that they would bother to probably take it to court since it's only a $50 fine.)

No, the Coliseum is NOT posted what-so-ever...unless you like to smoke:) The thing is, not a ton of stuff that happens there is done without alcohol. The question is, is it off-limits even if there is no alcohol being served at your event there (such as the Jimmy Duncan's family BBQ) but since they do hold a liquor license? Seems like "served" would be the key word to me.

Matthew

[Oh Shoot]

You know, we were told that city greenways were off-limits (and they were just like parks until the law went into effect), but does the city code state that greenways are off-limits? State code makes it very clear that greenways fall under the parks law, but if the local, pre '86 doesn't say "greenways", then I would say you'd have a good fight in court (not that they would bother to probably take it to court since it's only a $50 fine.)

Sigh. I'll have to find the freaking city ordinance now.

No, the Coliseum is NOT posted what-so-ever...unless you like to smoke:) The thing is, not a ton of stuff that happens there is done without alcohol. The question is, is it off-limits even if there is no alcohol being served at your event there (such as the Jimmy Duncan's family BBQ) but since they do hold a liquor license? Seems like "served" would be the key word to me.

Matthew

I dunno.

My guess is that open carrying, you'd be told to leave at the least and arrested at the worst, soon as a cop saw you.

I'll report back after I find the website with Knoxville ordinances again.

To my knowledge, we don't have a Knoxville policeman on this whole forum.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

You know, we were told that city greenways were off-limits (and they were just like parks until the law went into effect), but does the city code state that greenways are off-limits? State code makes it very clear that greenways fall under the parks law, but if the local, pre '86 doesn't say "greenways", then I would say you'd have a good fight in court (not that they would bother to probably take it to court since it's only a $50 fine.)

No, the Coliseum is NOT posted what-so-ever...unless you like to smoke:) The thing is, not a ton of stuff that happens there is done without alcohol. The question is, is it off-limits even if there is no alcohol being served at your event there (such as the Jimmy Duncan's family BBQ) but since they do hold a liquor license? Seems like "served" would be the key word to me.

Matthew

Okay, found it, saved a text file if this comes up again.

--------------

From:

Municode - Search

Chapter 20 - Parks and Recreation.

Sec. 20-52. - Definitions.

Park means a park, reservation, playground, beach, recreation center or any other area in the city owned, leased or used by the city and devoted to active or passive recreation.

Sec. 20-60. - Recreational activities.

No person in a public park shall:

(7)Hunt, trap or pursue wildlife at any time. No person shall use, carry or possess firearms of any description, air rifles, spring guns, bows and arrows, slings or any other form of weapon potentially inimical to wildlife and dangerous to human safety, any instrument that can be loaded with and fire blank cartridges, or any kind of trapping device. Shooting into park areas from beyond park boundaries is forbidden.

Sec. 20-53. - Penalty for violation of article.

Any person who is found to have violated this article may be punished as provided in section 1-9.

Sec. 1-9. - General penalty; continuing violations.

Whenever in this Code or in any ordinance of the city an act is prohibited or is made or declared to be unlawful, or an offense or a misdemeanor, or whenever in such Code or ordinance the doing of any act is required or the failure to do any act is declared to be unlawful, where no specific penalty is provided therefor, the violation of any such provision of this Code or any such ordinance shall be punished as follows: Any person violating any of the provisions of this general penalty article shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and conviction thereof shall result in the penalties of a monetary fine not to exceed fifty dollars ($50.00) and the repayment of administrative costs incident to the correction of the municipal violation in an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500.00) and/or by imprisonment not to exceed thirty (30) days, or both, for each separate offense. Each day any violation of this Code or of any

ordinance shall continue shall constitute a separate offense.

--------

- So, seems clear that under the definition of a "park", the coliseum would certainly be included.

- Also, I didn't know the penalty could include jail time!

- Also also, perhaps the scariest part is that it's not beyond the pale to think that the state MIGHT pull your HCP if the Knoxville court were to have a hard on enough for you to pass the info along to them. In the state statute there's a catch-all provision of "Poses a material likelihood of risk of harm to the public;"

- OS

[macville]

- So, seems clear that under the definition of a "park", the coliseum would certainly be included.

- Also, I didn't know the penalty could include jail time!

- Also also, perhaps the scariest part is that it's not beyond the pale to think that the state MIGHT pull your HCP if the Knoxville court were to have a hard on enough for you to pass the info along to them. In the state statute there's a catch-all provision of "Poses a material likelihood of risk of harm to the public;"

It does seems that it would fall under that because the building would be "passive" recreation. So my questions now is, how do they have gun shows at the Jacobs building? The Knoxville code doesn't say you can have a firearm if you are doing a gun show, it says no firearms PERIOD in their "parks"--no exceptions. So therefore, everyone in possession of a firearm at Chilhowee Park is breaking knoxville code and could be sent to jail for upto 30 days. That's pretty serious.

I still think if you got caught carrying in an illegal, but un-posted park, you'd get off the hook if you requested a jury trial.

So I am wondering if I should point this discovery to our mayor to show how dumb the city council people are in keeping the old law, but allowing gun shows at Chilhowee.

Matthew

[Oh Shoot]

...

So I am wondering if I should point this discovery to our mayor to show how dumb the city council people are in keeping the old law, but allowing gun shows at Chilhowee.

Matthew

Ummm, I'm thinking "let sleeping dogs lie" is the better part of valor here.

Unless you want to join the Voldemort crusade.

- OS

[macville]

Ummm, I'm thinking "let sleeping dogs lie" is the better part of valor here.

Unless you want to join the Voldemort crusade.

Two things. First, basically you want me to ignore the fact that City of Knoxville law is being broken every time there is a gun show there? Not just a civil fine involved, but a criminal act also. Do you ignore someone breaking into your neighbor's house? Because what you've suggested is pretty much the exact same thing. Illegal is illegal. While it may not seem to help our cause (more on that later), it does show that abide by the law-even if we don't like it. I think that's important to show the uneducated here in Knoxville.

Second, do you want gun lovers money going to the anti-gun City of Knoxville? Because if there's a gun show at the park, then the city is getting a cut for building rental. Did you visit restaurants which posted during the restaurant carry fiasco? Same principle here. Why support someone/something that doesn't support your right to carry arms?

BTW, I am not trying to be like the idiot permit holders who were involved in the restaurant carry lawsuit. I am only suggesting this because right now if City of Knoxville Police wanted to enforce the law they could and a lot of innocent people could wind up in jail.

Maybe it's just me, but I tend to play by the rules even if I don't like them and that's why I am trying to get the "rules" changed in our state for the better. Now, if you all want to start another revolution to put the Constitution back in place, I'm not saying I'm out;)

Matthew

[Oh Shoot]

Two things. First, basically you want me to ignore the fact that City of Knoxville law is being broken every time there is a gun show there?...

I would rather want you to become more familiar with TCA, wherein firearm possession during gun shows in civic recreational facilities is specifically allowed.

Second, do you want gun lovers money going to the anti-gun City of Knoxville? ...

No, I guess you're right. We need to spearhead the movement to ban gun shows at Chilhowee Park. That will help us all, and I'm sorry I've been remiss in that endeavor.

- OS

[Fallguy]

OS is right...

Not sure about any Knoxville Ordnance, but 39-17-1311 specifically makes an exception for gun shows.

[macville]

OS is right...

Not sure about any Knoxville Ordnance, but 39-17-1311 specifically makes an exception for gun shows.

EXCEPT, that 39-17-1311 doesn't apply here because 1311 talks about pre '86 laws superseding the current law. Basically, 1311 means if there isn't a law pre '86 in place, then the current law in in effect. But since Knoxville had a law in place that they stuck with, the provision of 1311 that allow carry in parks at gunshows does not apply. See, the issue is that because how 1311 was written, City of Knoxville law overrides it and the city law says no guns period. Now, if Knoxville dropped their old law and then adopted the no parks carry part of the law, it would be legal since there is an exception for gun shows.

Here's the thing. If Knoxville pre '86 law doesn't override what's in 1311, then right now it's perfectly legal to carry in City of Knoxville parks as the old law is not in effect and they never adopted the new resolution against carry. But somehow I don't believe either you actually believe that. The pre '86 law is in effect and it currently has no exceptions for gunshows that I've seen.

Not trying to be a butt, just pointing out the language of the law.

Matthew

[Oh Shoot]

EXCEPT, that 39-17-1311 doesn't apply here because 1311 talks about pre '86 laws superseding the current law. Basically, 1311 means if there isn't a law pre '86 in place, then the current law in in effect. But since Knoxville had a law in place that they stuck with, the provision of 1311 that allow carry in parks at gunshows does not apply. See, the issue is that because how 1311 was written, City of Knoxville law overrides it and the city law says no guns period. Now, if Knoxville dropped their old law and then adopted the no parks carry part of the law, it would be legal since there is an exception for gun shows.

Here's the thing. If Knoxville pre '86 law doesn't override what's in 1311, then right now it's perfectly legal to carry in City of Knoxville parks as the old law is not in effect and they never adopted the new resolution against carry. But somehow I don't believe either you actually believe that. The pre '86 law is in effect and it currently has no exceptions for gunshows that I've seen.

Not trying to be a butt, just pointing out the language of the law.

Matthew

Well, you might have an argument for that small part of it, but you'd have to glean that nowhere else in Knoxville ordinances is the power granted to have gunshows on city property, and it probably is. I've done all the homework on it I'm gonna, for now.

And even if that power isn't specified, taking on the city over the discrepancy could only have one outcome, if any at all, and what do you think THAT would be? Right, banning gun shows in city recreational facilities.

Plus, if a suit were won, it would only be a procedural one, as no damages could be claimed, so all City Council has to do is amend the municipal code to specifically allow gun shows, assuming they care enough to do it, rather than just ban them (a much more likely outcome, IMO).

If you think that it could possibly go the other way, and allow carry all the time on rec properties, then you are smoking some powerful stuff. And further, even if it could, they'd simply repeal that section so that the state statue becomes binding, and then they'd simply have to post the rec properties. And they'd be so pissed by then they'd damn sure post them frequently and compliantly, and maybe ban gun shows in the whole city while they're at it.

- OS

[Fallguy]

EXCEPT, that 39-17-1311 doesn't apply here because 1311 talks about pre '86 laws superseding the current law. Basically, 1311 means if there isn't a law pre '86 in place, then the current law in in effect. But since Knoxville had a law in place that they stuck with, the provision of 1311 that allow carry in parks at gunshows does not apply. See, the issue is that because how 1311 was written, City of Knoxville law overrides it and the city law says no guns period. Now, if Knoxville dropped their old law and then adopted the no parks carry part of the law, it would be legal since there is an exception for gun shows.

Here's the thing. If Knoxville pre '86 law doesn't override what's in 1311, then right now it's perfectly legal to carry in City of Knoxville parks as the old law is not in effect and they never adopted the new resolution against carry. But somehow I don't believe either you actually believe that. The pre '86 law is in effect and it currently has no exceptions for gunshows that I've seen.

Not trying to be a butt, just pointing out the language of the law.

Matthew

I did say I wasn't sure about Knoxville ordnances. Also it is 1314 that says pre 04/01/86 ordnances are not effected by state law, not 1311

But you are right in that the city shouldn't be able to have it both ways, they either need to go by current T.C.A. which would mean they would have to pass a resolution or prohibit carry, of go by a pre-'86 ban that bans ALL posession (I assume)