Have I got this right?

[Guest Catdaddy]

I would LOVE to build a Philip Luty 9mm SMG- but as this is ILLEGAL as hell, I won't.

BUT- If I were to want to build a semi-aito version, with the smoothbore barrel as designed, would that not qualify as a smoothbore pistol?

Purely academic as of right now, but I am a nut about constructing things, however impractical they may be.

ALSO, a gun specifically designed to appear to be a wallet would be an AOW, and constructible with the proper stamp. No?

Just checking my understanding, after re-reading the "read first" posts.

[Guest Catdaddy]

And here's another interesting question- to me at least- If a person builds a 12 ga smoothbore semiauto pistol on a new receiver, (forearm grip ok, here, too- right?) and then attaches a drum magazine- when and where does it cross over into DD territory, like the streetsweeper?

Hmmmmm......

[Guest crotalus01]

The street sweeper and the USAS were classified as DDs because the ATF determined they had "no sporting purpose" - essentially they were a feel good sacrifice to the Brady Bunch et al. The Saiga 12 gauge takes magazines and drums and is not a DD, so yes it would be legal to build a 12 guage smooth bore pistol provided you register it first as an AOW ($5 tax stamp) and it must be built on a virgin pistol grip (if your receiver has ever had a stock attached to it at any time it would then be considered an SBS and would require a $200 tax stamp). The Safety Harbor KEG 12 and Serbu Super Shorty are two examples of 12 gauge AOW smooth bore pistols that are currently for sale.

Wallet holsters are legal, it is only when you possess both the wallet holster and a pistol to install in it that it must be registered as an AOW. Derringers were specifically mentioned in the Tech letter that came out in 1976 classifying them as AOWs. The "reasoning" behind it was that once the gun is installed in the holster, it becomes a single concealed firearm in which the grip of the pistol is no longer able to be utilized as it was originally designed to be, thus making the combo an AOW. Silly huh?

As far as your SMG question, there may be a way to do it legally, but I am unfamiliar with the Philip Luty SMG so I will leave that for someone else to try and answer...

[Reservoir Dog]

...so yes it would be legal to build a 12 guage smooth bore pistol provided you register it first as an AOW ($5 tax stamp)...

Manufacturing an AOW requires a Form 1 ($200 tax stamp). AOW transfers are $5.

[Photoguy67]

The street sweeper and the USAS were classified as DDs because the ATF determined they had "no sporting purpose" -

I am no expert in this, but I thought only the street sweeper was classified a destructive device and not the USAS Spas.

[Reservoir Dog]

I am no expert in this, but I thought only the street sweeper was classified a destructive device and not the USAS Spas.

He is referring to the USAS-12 manufactured by Daewoo, and it is classified as a DD.

The SPAS is a totally different shotgun made by Franchi. It is a regular shotgun, and not a DD.

[Guest Catdaddy]

Which brings me back to the question about mfg a smoothbore 12 ga pistol with a drum mag- since it APPEARS that the designation of some similar weapons as DD's was somewhat arbitrary, a weapon of similar construction would be just an AOW- until they DECIDED differently. on an individual basis?

All opinions are welcome, of course no decisions would be made without direct approval by BATFE.

Back to the original question. A non-shoulder fired, semiauto smoothbore pistol in 9mm, blowback open-bolt design, would qualify as a AOW, if I understand the rules. I have considered building one (as an exercise in technique, shall we say, while I learn how to build closed bolt with an extractor). The stamp to construct would be $200.00.

It could then be transferred to another person in the future as an AOW for the $5.00 transfer fee.

Did I get that right?

Again all opinions welcome.

Thans for helping me understand.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Catdaddy

[Guest TwoLaneBlackTop]

Any magazine fed open bolt design is automatically regarded as a machinegun by the ATF due to the ease of conversion of such design to full auto. This occurred after the appearance of the open bolt MAC semi-auto pistols and the KG-9. The open bolt semi autos made prior to the 1982 ruling are title 1 firearms and thus can be bought and sold the same as any other semi-auto handgun.

So in short the smoothbore part is pretty irelevant considering the design would be considered a machinegun.

[Guest Catdaddy]

Thank you, Twolane! That's just like BATFE to pee on my dreams. Any chance you could cite the regulations on that?

I guess I'll have to study closed bolt design some more.

Thanks again.

[Guest TwoLaneBlackTop]

Any chance you could cite the regulations on that?

Sure.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf

Look at...

ATF Rul. 82-2

ATF Rul. 82-8

ATF Rul. 83-5