Folding stock carbine choice in .223?

[Dobervol]

Well, the forum has been "automatically" nagging me to post again for several months, so I thought I'd catch up today w/two question threads. Suggestions and choices for a "car carbine" w/folding stock? Purpose is to have something which will fit in my convertible trunk (30" wide where it would be stored) as a defensive carbine but also just have it with me if I'm near a range and want to stop in and shoot a few rounds. A standard-sized AR is a tad too big. Don't really want a bullpup, and Kel-Tec SU-16 is too plastic-ey, but other than that, I'm open. Only options I've found are Sig 556 and the tactical Mini-14s w/the ATI stock.

Opinions, suggestions, reasons, and any shop who may have your suggested gun here in the Mid-TN area? Thanks.

[wareagle]

I might suggest an AK variant. Specifically, I like the galil.

[Dobervol]

Huge price diff. for the Galil or any other .223 AK variant, to be sure, and I'm sure they're reliable, but how about the (IMO, anyway) problem of heat issues? Does a .223 not tend to run as hot in an AK as a 7.62?

[wareagle]

Huge price diff. for the Galil or any other .223 AK variant, to be sure, and I'm sure they're reliable, but how about the (IMO, anyway) problem of heat issues? Does a .223 not tend to run as hot in an AK as a 7.62?

Actually, I was recently looking at the above model for $599. I think JGsales has it priced at $699 now. They are a bit more expensive that the 7.62, but cheaper than other .223 options.

[Dobervol]

Sorry; my bad. Previous post just wasn't very clear. I was making two diff. comparisions, one based on price and another on heat.

I meant even the .223 AK variants at the prices you mention are about half of a Sig Sauer 556 at $1,500, so would be worth looking into just from that standpoint. I wasn't comparing price to a 7.62 AK, but heat instead. That said, have you shot both a std. AK and a .223 variant to be able to compare how hot they run relatively speaking?

Actually, I was recently looking at the above model for $599. I think JGsales has it priced at $699 now. They are a bit more expensive that the 7.62, but cheaper than other .223 options.

[mk19]

I have a Golani, it workd fine and is compact. also if you are looking for an AR pattern rifle with a foldy then look at the Para one, can't remember the name but it has a foldy. the Golani is much cheaper ofcourse, has the goods of the AK but not the bads.

[wareagle]

No worries. I've not compared heat. I have fired all three calibers (7.62, 5.56 and 5.45) in folding stock formats. My amd65 seemed to be the hottest, but it has a very short barrel and no metal forearm. It also seems to have worst muzzle flash. Maybe some other gusy can give you a less subjective opinion.

[nightrunner]

FN SCAR has a folding stock

folding-stock AK

Para AR has a folding stock

[Dobervol]

Yeah, I know about the Para, the TTR ("Tactical Target Rifle"), but it's mucho expensive. I don't want to spend over $1,500 on this purchase, and it's going for nearly $2,000. And as for the SCAR, it would be the clear choice but for the $2,500 price tag. I can't get past the idea that I can buy a really nice scope, another rifle, or good, basic 1911 for the $1,000 diff. between it and the Sig, or over $1,500 between it and the AK folder.

Anybody seen any Sig 556s or .223 AK variants at any Mid-TN shops? On the one hand, I'm thinking the Sig more and more, but I really do want to lay hands on an AK before deciding. Big $$ diff., even btwn those two.

[nightrunner]

have you considered a standard AR taken down to the upper and lower receivers?

[Guest goomba]

nothing wrong with an M1 30Carbine with either a standard stock or a folding stock...

very effective with SP withing 100yds.

[Dobervol]

Yes, I've considered the taken-down AR route, but even though it may well be paranoid, I just like the feeling of having an immediately available, pop in the mag and defend yourself rifle option available in the vehicle, esp. in today's political and economic climate. If I've heard it once, I've heard it 1,000 times: the reason for having a pistol is to be able to fight your way to your rifle. And I may be wrong, but I thought the Sigs could fire folded if you had to, in a pinch? Obviously, I can carry anything in my full-size pickup, so a regular AR is fine for that purpose.

[Dobervol]

Hmm. Gotta admit, that one never crossed my mind, even though I read a review of a standard-stocked M1 .30 just this morning. Mind disclosing just how much your new addition set you back, approx.?

nothing wrong with an M1 30Carbine with either a standard stock or a folding stock...

very effective with SP withing 100yds.

[Dobervol]

Curious; do any of the folders fire w/stock folded? Not a necessity, just a nicety.

No worries. I've not compared heat. I have fired all three calibers (7.62, 5.56 and 5.45) in folding stock formats. My amd65 seemed to be the hottest, but it has a very short barrel and no metal forearm. It also seems to have worst muzzle flash. Maybe some other gusy can give you a less subjective opinion.

[mk19]

yeah they all fire with the stock folded. or you can go all gangsta and get a AK underfolder and call it a day.

there are heaps of options in other calibers for folding stocks. DSA has their Para version in 308, you can get PTR91s with collapsible stocks in the same caliber. can get pistol caliber carbines..........

[RoDan]

Kel-tec SU-16C

[Dobervol]

Yeah, I know it isn't the fault of the firearm, but the "gangsta" deal is one of the biggest reasons I'm a little reluctant to go the folding AK route. All the experts say "it's an excellent gun; don't blame the gun," but the image is hard for me to shake mentally.

On the pistol caliber carbine route, any recommendations? Experience with the Beretta Storm?

. . . or you can go all gangsta and get a AK underfolder and call it a day. . . can get pistol caliber carbines..........

[RoDan]

The kel tec is plastic-y but its is very light, and plenty durable unless you plan to go to the sandbox with it. I was skeptical of the plastic at first too, but for me its perfect. Besides, other guns made of plastic have done fine... *cough-glock-cough*

[BrasilNuts]

So, am I understanding that you want to keep this rifle in your car trunk for extended periods of time?

If the answer to that question is yes then I would go with a cheap under/sidefolder AK. One thing you really have to keep in mind is theft. I wouldn't be keeping a $1000-$1500 anything in my trunk if I could help it.

So with that in mind if you absolutely positively have to have a rifle in your trunk... I'd make it a cheap, but good one.

[Dobervol]

I've read nothing but good reviews for the gun, esp. considering the great price, but I guess I have a had a hard time believing it was stable unfolded when shouldered. So, I'll ask, since you're not a gunwriter for a mag whose, shall we say, advertising budget might take a hit if you gave a gun a thumbs down--how stable a platform is it; how does accuracy compare to a 16" barreled, traditional, gas impingement AR?

The kel tec is plastic-y but its is very light, and plenty durable unless you plan to go to the sandbox with it. I was skeptical of the plastic at first too, but for me its perfect. Besides, other guns made of plastic have done fine... *cough-glock-cough*

[nightrunner]

have you thought about an AR-pistol. with the padded buffer tube, I hear they actually shoot pretty much like a SBR when shouldered.

[Dobervol]

More to investigate--nope, I've always thought the buffer tube sticking out the back of the, ahem, "pistol," looked goofy as all get out, but if it truly shoots well and is a legit. option for my intended application, I'd sure consider it. That, plus BrasilNuts does have a point about not just keeping a $1,500 gun in the trunk of the car and leaving it there. Ah, decisions, decisions. But better to ask questions now than not and get home w/a gun I hate. Thanks.

have you thought about an AR-pistol. with the padded buffer tube, I hear they actually shoot pretty much like a SBR when shouldered.

[crashgordan]

for the price point you have listed, the sig 556 is it. damn fine rifle. you won't be disappointed. imho

[Guest goomba]

nothing wrong with an M1 30Carbine with either a standard stock or a folding stock...

very effective with SP withing 100yds.

Hmm. Gotta admit, that one never crossed my mind, even though I read a review of a standard-stocked M1 .30 just this morning. Mind disclosing just how much your new addition set you back, approx.?

The one I currently have is more for collectors value: it cost just shy of a thousand bucks (Here are some pics of my M1 30Carbine). However you can still get rack & service grade carbines from The CMP for between $450 up to $650 for a service grade M1 marked Bavaria Rural Police

SWAT magazine has an article this month on a tactical upgrade for the M1 Carbine. The article sums up what I plan on doing with my next M1 Carbine, which may be from the CMP or a new one from Auto-Ordnance(I have heard good reviews). Anyway, the upgrade mainly consists of an Ultimak forward rail that replaces the handguard, add in your preferd reddot and white light. there are folding stocks avalible as well, either wood or synthetic. and you can also add short sections of rail to the stock, so theoreticlly you could also add a VFG or somthing similar.

the next big thing is ammo. Standard Ball .30 Carbine takes a 110g FMJ round. There has always been complaints about the stoping power of a 30 carbine round. (Archived THRthread) but if you are using 110g Speer Gold Dot or 100g Corbon DPX ammo (Looks like Federal has some 110g SP Ammo also). I personally would not feel under powerd using that type of ammo. I'm a fan of the Corbon DPX round, So I'll probably go with this.

Then I'd add a butstock ammo pouch that holds two 15rd Mags. reproduction mag pouches work fine, surplus pouches can be found on ebay easily. of course, if you go with a folding stock, you either dump the stock mag pouch or do some mods. I'm thinking about doing a mod on a folding stock. Of course, these Ideas are all still theory for me. but I think I'm doing a good job of making this a project for 2010!

Mags are cheap right now, you can get four 30rd mags + pouch from Sarco as well as parts for the carbine. they advertise in SGN. so grab an issue for current prices. I have been told to call when you order to make sure the item is in stock... this is on my to do list for when my paycheck recovers from the holidays.

I'm partial to the paratrooper style stock. & if I can find one for about $100 I'd be happy, but most of the ones that I find usually go for $175 and up. I need more money so I can get all of my toys.

well, I hope the images I posted in this post are too large. but I think they give you a sampling of what I have in mind for upgrading an M1 carbine. Not meaning to thread jack and all. but since your wanting this as a trunk gun, you can upgrade the carbine as you have time/money, but if you get a beater from the CMP and a simple canvas case, I think you would be at a good starting point. also, you dont have to worry so much about the Evil black rifle or OMG he's got an AK sterotype, because what you have is a WW2 brown rifle.

I think the M1 30Carbine is often overlooked b/c it's not tacticool black and other such junk. but you might just be surprised once you pick one up.

oh, if your tall like me (over 6ft.) the short stock takes a little getting used to.

Good luck.

Edited January 2, 2010 by goomba

[RoDan]

I've read nothing but good reviews for the gun, esp. considering the great price, but I guess I have a had a hard time believing it was stable unfolded when shouldered. So, I'll ask, since you're not a gunwriter for a mag whose, shall we say, advertising budget might take a hit if you gave a gun a thumbs down--how stable a platform is it; how does accuracy compare to a 16" barreled, traditional, gas impingement AR?

Accuracy is superb, some say it is better than many ARs. I'd say it is at least on par with a good 16" AR, probably slightly more accurate. It has been very reliable as well. The only failures of any kind have been from crappy reloads that were not re-sized properly at all (wouldn't even fit in the chamber they were so bad ) As far as a stable platform, it is plenty stable enough for anything I'd want to put it through. Despite the plastic rail molded into the receiver, it holds zero very well. There is ZERO play in the stock when unfolded and shouldered, the lock mechanism for the stock is actually quite clever in it's design. It cycles the crummy and weak range ammo that is frangible, that some indoor ranges require. Another plus, it is a gas piston design, much like an AK so it doesn't crap where it eats. I haven't gone out of my way to shoot a lot of rounds through the gun between cleanings, but I can tell you it is pretty clean in the chamber after a decent range session. The only downside though, is because it is plastic, if you were to go into battle and had to use it as a bat... well, look else where. Aside from that, it is a great platform, very lightweight, and extremely fun to shoot. I love ARs too though, but the SU-16C is hard to beat on performance for the price, bang for the buck.