CCing when posting is not as TN says it should be.

[Guest 270win]

Cruel Hand, i second what you just stated about not making an issue of carrying. I have carried in some places where people say one shouldn't carry, such as banks, hospitals, school grounds (yes in some states it is legal), government buildings, bars, restaurants (again legal depending on the state) without anyone approaching me because my handgun is CONCEALED. As long as a place does not have metal detectors, I will not have a problem and be asked to leave if i am at a location legally. Even if i mistakingly am in an illegal location, no one knows because, again, my handgun is concealed. The only time i open carry is while hunting, fishing, or at the range, places where folks normally aren't run off for carrying a handgun.

It would be great to openly carry without hassle anywhere we choose, but this is not Arizona or Virginia where you can openly carry WITHOUT a license. Tennessee requires a permit to carry in most situations (a few exceptions such as outdoor activities), thus if you are carrying a handgun in public you are subject to the police walking up to you to verify your legality if you are openly carrying the handgun. Personally, I like to avoid any questioning by police or other people. The only time anyone has known i MAY be carrying is when stopped for a traffic violation and my DL is run. Even then, i do not volunteer the fact that i am armed.

[Marswolf]

Maybe this will help explain the legal thing.

This is from The Tennessee District Attorneys General Conference.

Victim / Witness Handbook

Arrest Warrants

Most criminal cases begin when one person signs an arrest warrant against another person accusing that person of a crime. An Arrest Warrant is a document which formally charges a person with having committed a crime. Persons charged with crimes are referred to as defendants. A warrant also authorizes law enforcement officers to arrest the person against whom it is issued. In Tennessee, arrest warrants are usually obtained by going to the appropriate court clerk's office and requesting that a warrant be issued.

Before a warrant may be issued, Tennessee law requires that the clerk or deputy clerk take an affidavit (a sworn statement of facts) from the person requesting that the warrant be issued. This means that the person requesting the warrant will be asked to relate the facts of the crime to the clerk and then will be required to swear or affirm that those facts are true.

So...someone sees you commit a crime (like packing in a posted location) and swears out an arrest warrant against you. You can then either have your misdemeanor charge heard by a judge in General Sessions Court (judge decides), or demand a jury trial.

General Sessions Court

When a person is charged with a misdemeanor, the general sessions court judge has authority to conduct a trial to determine the guilt or innocence of the defendant. Before conducting such a trial, however, the general sessions judge must obtain permission from both the defendant and the district attorney. This is because both the defendant and the State of Tennessee have a right to a trial by jury. Remember there are no juries in general sessions court. Usually, in misdemeanor cases, the defendant chooses to be tried by the judge alone, and the State agrees to allow this. If the defendant is found guilty, he has a right to appeal the judge's decision to the circuit court and have an entirely new trial before a jury there. When this happens, witnesses may have to repeat their testimony in the jury trial.

If the general sessions judge finds the defendant not guilty, the trial is over and the defendant cannot be tried again for that offense. This would be double jeopardy. The state does not have the right to appeal a judge's decision that a defendant is not guilty.

OK, is that clear now?

BTW, here is a good page explaining An Overview of Criminal Offenses under Tennessee Law

[dralarms]

Maybe this will help explain the legal thing.

This is from The Tennessee District Attorneys General Conference.

Victim / Witness Handbook

So...someone sees you commit a crime (like packing in a posted location) and swears out an arrest warrant against you. You can then either have your misdemeanor charge heard by a judge in General Sessions Court (judge decides), or demand a jury trial.

OK, is that clear now?

BTW, here is a good page explaining An Overview of Criminal Offenses under Tennessee Law

Also just to interject something, most poepole aren't going to go get a warrant for you because it's $75.00 for the warrant (at least around here).

[Fallguy]

Also just to interject something, most poepole aren't going to go get a warrant for you because it's $75.00 for the warrant (at least around here).

I don't think there is supposed to be a charge for a criminal warrant. A civil one yes, but not criminal.

But I also don't think that Joe Sheep is going to take the time to go to the courthouse, swear out the warrant and appear in court over most matters either. The security guard might because that could be considered part of his job.

But the above is very informitive. What you could basically say on misdemeanor arrest is, an officer can arrest you without a warrant if he sees the offense. Otherwise he needs a warrant that has been sworn to be true by someone. ...and even then in most cases you should be cited into court (like a traffic ticket) rather than detained in jail.

Also as in Mars post....if you did go to court you could have a jury trial rather than have the judge decided it. ...and as we all know jury's can do strange things...

Of course.....just don't violate the law.

[DaveTN]

OK, is that clear now?

Good links.

Okay that makes it pretty clear that you can be arrested for a misdemeanor whether a cop sees it or not.

Now a question about the arrest warrant.

A couple of thugs are making a scene in a restaurant. The owner or manager asks them to leave. As they are leaving one of them punches the owner/manager in the face (misdemeanor assault).

The police dispatcher sends a couple of Officers and gives them a description of the perps and a vehicle description with a plate number. One of the responding Officers sees the vehicle and stops it. The victim is brought to the vehicle stop and ID’s the guy that punched him.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that the perp is going to be hauled off to jail. Is that correct or is someone going to go see a judge to get an aresst warrant? And if so in Athens, TN the victim is going to be charged $75?

[Marswolf]

I don't know if there is a filing charge. A phone call tomorrow can find out.

But yes, the victim or someone who saw the incident will have to swear out the warrant.

[DaveTN]

I don't know if there is a filing charge. A phone call tomorrow can find out.

But yes, the victim or someone who saw the incident will have to swear out the warrant.

So what are the cops going to do with the perps? Drive off and leave them, wait while someone goes before a Judge and gets a warrant?

[Fallguy]

What usually happens on something like that is, the officer asks restaurant manager if he, "Wants to press charges?". If he does then in effect the restaurant manager has arrested the perp and transfered custody to the police. T.C.A. 40-7-109 and T.C.A. 40-7-113

[DaveTN]

What usually happens on something like that is, the officer asks restaurant manager if he, "Wants to press charges?". If he does then in effect the restaurant manager has arrested the perp and transfered custody to the police. T.C.A. 40-7-109 and T.C.A. 40-7-113

Finally…. That’s exactly what I thought would be the case.

It’s no different that the state where I was a cop. If you commit a crime you get arrested; end of story. I didn’t think Tennessee would be that much different than most states. But hey… I’m still trying to learn Tennessee law.

[strickj]

ok lets all remember that people don't know the laws word for word.if a bank wants to place you under citizens arrest he could very well tackle you,handcuff you,and hold you against you will unlawfully.if a sign is posted unlawfully even the leo's may not know that it is!you could be in a world of trouble and a lot of wasted time and money,even if it is thrown out by a judge.just because you know what is right or wrong don't mean other people will including leo's!

[Fallguy]

Ummmm, Thanks, I think:), Dave.

But still that doesn't mean the perp is going to jail that night. I know everyone is probably tired of be quoting statutes, but.

T.C.A. 40-7-118((3)(D) says a person may be issued a citation in lieu of arrest for Assault or battery.

40-7-118. Use of citations in lieu of continued custody of an arrested person.

((3) A peace officer may issue a citation to the arrested person to appear in court in lieu of the continued custody and the taking of the arrested person before a magistrate if a person is arrested for:

(D) Assault or battery as those offenses are defined by common law,

But there are 8 reasons listed in T.C.A. 40-7-118©(1)-(8) that an officer can continue custody instead of issuing a citation. Some are judgment calls and in the above restaurant manager situation could allow for the continued custody or the perp.

strickj... You are right in that many people, including some LEO's don't know the law. That is why many people who carry keep copies of releveant laws on their person.

[DaveTN]

But still that doesn't mean the perp is going to jail that night.

I didn’t mean to imply that it did. We had discretion on whether or not to make an arrest on a misdemeanor. We did not have that discretion of a felony.

If it was a misdemeanor we could either take the person in and book them into jail and make them post bond. Usually used in a situation where the arrested was being uncooperative or the Officer felt that the situation would continue. Or we could release them with a field NTA (Notice to appear). That was usually used when the situation was over and the offender was not violent.

On a felony arrest they were booked into jail and could not bond until they went before a Judge.

Is Tennessee much different than that?

[Fallguy]

No, TN is not that much different.

An officer has some discretion on a misdemeanor. It goes back to those 8 reasons. The officer also has to site which of those 8 reasons as to why the person was "booked" instead of issued a citation.

But I think it is more likely that a person that was assulted would "press charges" and make a "citizens arrest" than a person who saw someone armed in a place that may be off limits. Most people want the police to make the charges, not themselves.

1) A person can be arrested for a misdemeanor, but the person that makes the arrest (LEO or citizen) has to witness the misdemeanor.

2) In most cases the person that commited the misdemeanor will be cited into court rather than taken to jail.

So back to the orginal topic of the post. If an armed person enters a business that does not have a proper sign or no sign at all...that person has NOT violated any law. If he asked to leave though, he must do so, if he doesn't he is then in violation of the law.

If you are a gambler, even if you have entered a place with a properly posted sign, if you leave before the police show up, the person (owner of who ever) who saw you entered armed will have to be the one to file the charges since the law that was broke was a misdemeanor. So it would all depend on how much that person wanted to push the issue. If it is a security guard, then I would say the chances are higher that the issue would be followed through with and you could be arrested by them and detained until the police arrive.

Also...anything I have said, is not to be taken as sound legal advice. I am not a Law Enforcement Officer or a Lawyer. I am not advising anyone to take any course of action and certainly not advising anyone to break the law. These are simply my opinion and views of the law as I see them in my limited capacity.

[Guest VolGrad]

This is an interesting subject because I think it was in the thread that list the places that you can not carry. Two of the places that were lested were Target and Foothills Mall here in Blount county. Not sure if the Target store was here or elsewhere. But I have been to both and not seen any signs at the entrance.

I am back in TN for the Holidays and went to both of these places in Murville (local speak) over the weekend. I didn't see any signs at Target or Kroger (I looked). However, I did see signs at Foothills. We entered through the door next to TJ Maxx by the bungee thingie. There was a sign that as far as I could tell was proper looking there.

[Guest eyebedam]

I don't know about the rest of you but if I see any sign saying something to the effect of NO GUN ALLOWED I am not going to go in if I have a gun on me. Pretty good chance there is. There are other options for lunch or furniture or whatever. And to me it is not worth having to prove to the man whether or not their sign was legal and sufficient.

This is where we think alike. If the buisness has a no firearms sign even if its not the exact wording they are still letting you know they dont wont us carrying in there buisness. I get sick of all the "it isnt exact so it doesnt matter". As far as malls go I always enter in a Anchor store where there isnt any posted signs that way I can honestly say the was no sign of any kind.I try to look at most things in a common sense sorta way. If they see you carrying & ask you to leave you have to leave regardless of being posted or not. No sense in making the rest of us look bad because of wanting to prove a point esp if you plan on debating them over the correctness of there posted sign which does actually say no weapons allowed.

Edited December 28, 2008 by eyebedam

[Guest nraforlife]

The law is the law and EVERYBODY, be it HCP holder or store owner, needs to follow it. If a property is not properly posted then its not properly posted and does not conform to the law and its not up to me to inform the owner of such.

[Guest db99wj]

I can't remember the last sign I read on any entrance. I take that back, I went to the bank the 24th at 8:15, the door was locked, so I looked at the hours. The lobby opened at 8:30.

Anyway, do what you think you need to do.

Edit: Oh, wow, old thread, carry on.

[Guest colrmccoll]

Let me ask this, without self incrimination:

Has anyone ever been arrested or hassled for being a gun free establishment?

[Guest HexHead]

Yeah... according to the VP, it was a security guard (customer, not bank's) that was on the ohone with his girlfriend, became agitated, and unholstered his weapon and began waving it around... which rightfully unnerved some of the tellers, so they decided 'to be fair' to prohibit all firearms... except for LEOs of course .

Despite my efforts to show how UN-fair this policy is, the VP decided to 'make it official', and now properly posted the property despite my objections... but don't worry, he 'understands where I am coming from'...

WHY would you even bring up the issue with him in the first place? Did you REALLY think once you pointed out the incorrect wording on the sign they put up, he'd just take it down? Especially when he asked you to send him the correct wording?

[ZenDog]

The way I see it, my duty to protect my loved ones from harm transcends any laws made by any men anywhere, and my duty to protect them certainly transcends an establishment's incorrectly posted (not legal) effort to dissuade me from entering while armed.

Whether or not I choose to enter such an establishment then becomes merely a question of tactical necessity.

[Guest HexHead]

So… the bank security guard or the bank manager tells you that you are carrying in violation of Tennessee law (If that’s the case, and I don’t know that it is) and that he is detaining you until the Police arrive. What are you going to do…. run?

You're the one with the gun, take them hostage of course.

:D:D

[Guest johnnyo]

In Maryville, Target is not posted nor is the Alcoa Kroger. However, Foothills Mall is posted only on the two "main" entrances all other doors are "NOT" posted. I always go into Foothills Mall through a non "marked" entrance CC'ing.

Be Safe

Happy New Year

[alwayspackin]

The problem is that if there is even some kind of sign up and the manager calls the police they would arrest you. Yes, you would probably beat it in court for 1000 dollar attorney fee. But here again concealment is the key. I always overlook those signs not matter where I go. Out of sight out of mind. Some officers are different than others. You never know who you’re going to get.

[Oh Shoot]

The problem is that if there is even some kind of sign up and the manager calls the police they would arrest you. ....

Oh I dunno...

As long as you weren't behaving like an idiot, fair chance they'd just tell you to scoot.

Anecdotal evidence of that happening most of the time in restaurants w/booze.

Of course, if you are "spotted", means you aren't concealing well to begin with, eh?

I am NOT talking about open carrying here, btw.

- OS

[Fallguy]

The problem is that if there is even some kind of sign up and the manager calls the police they would arrest you. Yes, you would probably beat it in court for 1000 dollar attorney fee. But here again concealment is the key. I always overlook those signs not matter where I go. Out of sight out of mind. Some officers are different than others. You never know who you’re going to get.

They may, but it's not a guarantee. Most managers would tell you to leave I think. But even if they call the police, it is a misdemeanor, the officer has to witness you committing the crime, if you are already outside then you are no longer breaking any law or even violating a policy. The manager would have to be the one to press charges. If he is sheepish enough to call the police instead of telling you to leave is he really going to follow though if he has to make the charges himself? But even if you are still inside, before the officer can arrest you he would need to determine a crime has been committed, for their to be a crime you have to have walked past a legal posting. More and more officers are familiar with carry laws (or at least check with those that may know more) and know what is a legal posting or not. If the officer determines there was no legal notice, then you have not violated the law, no arrest.

Now could an officer just arrest you and let it play out in court, sure. But it's not a for sure thing you will be arrested for carry past just any old sign.

Also...a good reason to carry a copy of the law with you, if you think it may be a problem.

I think OS has it right as well.