CCing when posting is not as TN says it should be.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Did he go to jail?

I couldn't find any information on the incident...

[DaveTN]

Sticking your head in the sand is not a viable approach to getting things changed. I actually own a business, and if I was losing patients because of a policy I instituted, I would want to know... even if I don't change it, I'd appreciate someone letting me know WHY they are upset with the policy. Maybe it's a bad policy, one rooted in ignorance, or is poorly presented to the patient. A patient that presents a valid complaint to a policy is revered in my mind, otherwise it may never change, and business would just decline. For each one that takes the time to 'complain' to you, 10 more are thinking the same thing.

I wouldn’t question the owner about it. And I wouldn’t consider that sticking my head in the sand; I would consider it respecting the rights of the business owner (the only one that has any rights in this case).

Any owner that would post a sign banning any group without understanding the consequences is ignorant and deserves to lose his business.

But then I’m pretty sure that anyone that would post a “no firearms†sign has their reasons for doing it. I wouldn’t want to listen to the liberal anti-gun ramblings that might follow.

[Guest 270win]

For telling Bank of Tennessee the legal way to keep handgun carry permit people out of their branches. It is so hilarious and stupid how some people go to great lengths to tell business that have an improperly posted sign "Hey you aren't posting properly" and sure enough that business finds out how to stick up the legal sign. What is even more stupid is when someone with a handgun carry permit TELLS the business what sign to use to prohibit his own entry in the business with a handgun legally.

I don't understand why some people can't just smile at the signs that have no legal meaning and go about their business with their handgun under their jacket. Now you get to risk an at most $500 fine if you walk in Bank of TN, and if they KNOW you carry, you can bet they will be watching you for every little buldge under your jacket to try to get you fined. What is even funnier is some people would flat out admit in a legally 'posted' location that they are carrying a handgun. More problems are started by people babbling than by just keeping quiet.

[Guest Hyaloid]

For telling Bank of Tennessee the legal way to keep handgun carry permit people out of their branches. It is so hilarious and stupid how some people go to great lengths to tell business that have an improperly posted sign "Hey you aren't posting properly" and sure enough that business finds out how to stick up the legal sign. What is even more stupid is when someone with a handgun carry permit TELLS the business what sign to use to prohibit his own entry in the business with a handgun legally.

I don't understand why some people can't just smile at the signs that have no legal meaning and go about their business with their handgun under their jacket. Now you get to risk an at most $500 fine if you walk in Bank of TN, and if they KNOW you carry, you can bet they will be watching you for every little buldge under your jacket to try to get you fined. What is even funnier is some people would flat out admit in a legally 'posted' location that they are carrying a handgun. More problems are started by people babbling than by just keeping quiet.

I was trying to work some good and be a positive influence for change... and it backfired. You can call me or my actions stupid all you want, that's constructive. The bottom line is it is the Bank of Tennessee's policy, not mine.

You can blame me and call me names all you want. Your opinion of me is irrelevant. The VP acted like he understood my complaints, then fowarded the information I gave to his higher ups so he can get a gold star sticker in his file.

IRT to Dave:

I DID respect the rights of the business owner, and i never carried in their establishment under ANY signage. What good is taking you business elsewhere if they have no idea why you left?

You win some, you lose some... there isn't much I can do to change anything now. You guys can blame me all you want and flame away, if that's what your ignorance tempts you to do.

[Guest canynracer]

It was the meaning of the sign that I had the discussion about, I didn't carry in the bank either. I informed the people in charge to let them know WHY I was not happy with their policy. Many times, if enough people do so, policies can change. If they don't know WHY you will not patronize their business, then it will NEVER change.

The discussion about the sign not being legal was almost an aside, but the VP took it and ran with it. In hindsight, knowing his reaction now, I probably would not have brought it up, but I cannot change that now.

So, you may think it is 'lame' top have a professional adult discussion with a higher up in a business to let them know that their policies are upsetting to a loyal customer. I didn't 'raise a stink', I had a cordial lunch with a fellow professional.

Sticking your head in the sand is not a viable approach to getting things changed. I actually own a business, and if I was losing patients because of a policy I instituted, I would want to know... even if I don't change it, I'd appreciate someone letting me know WHY they are upset with the policy. Maybe it's a bad policy, one rooted in ignorance, or is poorly presented to the patient. A patient that presents a valid complaint to a policy is revered in my mind, otherwise it may never change, and business would just decline. For each one that takes the time to 'complain' to you, 10 more are thinking the same thing.

I wasnt pointing you out specifically, I am speaking in more general terms. This dicussion has come up a couple times now. Meeting the VP is your choice, and I think you did that in a professional manner.

I am speaking about folks that make it a point to carry (sometimes openly) JUST to make the point about the sign.

I agree with Dave, it IS a respect thing. point is, they dont want guns in their store...you know that, and the store owner knows that. Really, if I owned a store, I dont feel I owe ANYONE an explaination on WHY I do want them. Just because the sign is incorrect doesnt mean they have to discuss why they dont want guns.

its not about sticking my head in the sand...

[Mike.357]

hilarious and stupid .... What is even more stupid

Classy comments there dude.

Hy, I commend you for trying to make a difference. Yes it is a shame it did not work out

but at least you did something. All too often people complain and then do nothing, and that I have no respect for.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Classy comments there dude.

Hy, I commend you for trying to make a difference. Yes it is a shame it did not work out

but at least you did something. All too often people complain and then do nothing, and that I have no respect for.

Thanks.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Just a general comment or two.

As Mars said ealier, I don't want ANY attention drawn to me.

If I can't sleep at night without complaining to the businesses about their policy I'm going to do it by phone and just keep it at "I'll be sure to tell everyone I come in contact with both on the street and in my classes that you don't support the right to self defense and I'll do my best to convince people to spend money with your competitors" and LEAVE IT AT THAT.

If they do not have it posted properly and you choose to carry in there then just carry in there and don't make a scene about it. Concealed means concealed. Of course if you have to carry openly then that will cause problems. But you knew that to begin with. Just go about your business and not try to be a crusader. It WON'T help.

And carrying where it is posted is a misdemeanor anyways. Under TN state law an officer has to WITNESS the act taking place for you to be charged with a misdemeanor. Felonies don't have to be witnessed by an officer, but misdemeanors do. So unless you carry into the police station it probably won't even be an issue. I'm not suggesting you break the law. I'm not suggesting you carry in places that you KNOW you should not be carrying. I'm suggesting if you CHOOSE to carry in places that are erroniously posted that you keep your mouths shut and keep your gear covered. Don't play school yard games and say "look at me!" "I'm carryng and you can't do anything because your sign is wrong " because all they have to do is change their sign and then you ARE breaking the law by carrying in there.Be careful with what you ask for...... Best to leave them NOT posted properly so if you ever do get CAUGHT they are not properly posted and you have a defense.....

Remember the purpose of being armed is to be able to defend yourself and others. Not to act as a conversation starter where we can affect change in the gun policies of local businesses. They respect profit. They don't give a damn about 1 guy who they are gonna view as a loon who complains about their "no gun" signs. That is why Blockbuster video changed their CORPORATE policy in 1998 or so. They respected profit (and were fearing losing it). But complaining at the LOCAL level didn't affect that. I'm not saying Hy is a loon. i'm sayng that is how non gun people look at us when we make a big deal of this stuff......

Hy, I appreciate what you were trying to do. But there are OFTEN unintended consequences. Even the best of intentions can sometimes come back to bite us. That is why I don't make a scene. And also why I carry concealed.

[DaveTN]

IRT to Dave:

I DID respect the rights of the business owner, and i never carried in their establishment under ANY signage. What good is taking you business elsewhere if they have no idea why you left?

You win some, you lose some... there isn't much I can do to change anything now. You guys can blame me all you want and flame away, if that's what your ignorance tempts you to do.

I didn’t flame you or call you stupid. My remarks were prompted by you implying that everyone that doesn’t get their panties in a bunch when they see a “no gun†sign has their head in the sand. People have rights and business owners have rights; if your okay with trampling all over theirs don’t get pizzed when someone walks all over yours.

(not directed specifically at you)

As a gun owner if pizzes me off to see the attitude of some people that think they can just ignore theses signs. That won’t help anything; what that will lead to is the legislature making it a criminal act with immediate revocation or your permit.

I have made my displeasure known, and am in the process of figuring out the details of moving the loans and accounts for my business, but it is complicated.

So… you tap danced with this guy and then let him walk all over you. If I felt strongly enough about this to start calling forums members ignorant over this I would have told him right then I’m canceling all business with his bank....that’s not complicated at all.

[DaveTN]

Under TN state law an officer has to WITNESS the act taking place for you to be charged with a misdemeanor. Felonies don't have to be witnessed by an officer, but misdemeanors do.

I find that hard to believe.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Read the statute. Strange but true.

There is a local case about to come up where one of the "traffic enforcement cameras" took a pic and a ticket was issued. The LAWYER who got the ticket has retained an attorney and he is arguing (and correctly according to the JUDGE that taught the constitutional law class I took back in my college days) that it is invalid as an OFFICER did not witness the infraction.And to be convicted of a misdemeanor than OFFICER must witness it. A camera is NOT an officer. The city is probably gonna lose this one. The statute is what the statute is.

[Guest Hyaloid]

I didn’t flame you or call you stupid. My remarks were prompted by you implying that everyone that doesn’t get their panties in a bunch when they see a “no gun†sign has their head in the sand. People have rights and business owners have rights; if your okay with trampling all over theirs don’t get pizzed when someone walks all over yours.

Sorry, I thought I made it clear that those remarks (i.e. head in the sand) were intended for razorback, that's why I referenced you separately (IRT=In Reference To).

(not directed specifically at you)

As a gun owner if pizzes me off to see the attitude of some people that think they can just ignore theses signs. That won’t help anything; what that will lead to is the legislature making it a criminal act with immediate revocation or your permit.

I mostly agree

So… you tap danced with this guy and then let him walk all over you. If I felt strongly enough about this to start calling forums members ignorant over this I would have told him right then I’m canceling all business with his bank....that’s not complicated at all.

I'm sorry... are you privy to the papers detailing the conditions of my business loan with the bank? It involves the SBA and several clauses in my lending agreement that DO make it very difficult at this time. I appreciate your opinion, but you are entirely ignorant of what it would take for me to move my 'business' elsewhere at the drop of a hat. There was no 'tap dancing' either, I let my opinion be known with no questions about where I stand. I wasn't 'walked all over', but I certainly was mislead. You must have had the table next to me at the restaurant then, to know these things.

The 'ignorant' statement was in response to folks speaking about things which they don't know, and didn't bother to find out before posting... if the shoe fits...

[Guest Hyaloid]

I wasnt pointing you out specifically, I am speaking in more general terms. This dicussion has come up a couple times now. Meeting the VP is your choice, and I think you did that in a professional manner.

I am speaking about folks that make it a point to carry (sometimes openly) JUST to make the point about the sign.

I agree with Dave, it IS a respect thing. point is, they dont want guns in their store...you know that, and the store owner knows that. Really, if I owned a store, I dont feel I owe ANYONE an explaination on WHY I do want them. Just because the sign is incorrect doesnt mean they have to discuss why they dont want guns.

its not about sticking my head in the sand...

Cool... sorry if I took that to mean me then. I think businesses have a right to decide whether or not they want their properties posted. However, I think it accomplishes little just to turn around and leave without voicing why... but hey, to each their own.

[DaveTN]

Read the statute. Strange but true.

Point me to it.

I’m not an expert on Tennessee law; so fill me in.

Shoplifting, battery, domestic violence, providing handguns to juveniles, ….and on and on. These are misdemeanors, and you are saying that Police Office has to witness them to make an arrest?

I would guess that Tennessee Police Officers have discretion on a misdemeanor, but not on a felony.

[Mike.357]

as for banks, remember the drive-through and or ATM is your friend.

[Fallguy]

Point me to it.

I’m not an expert on Tennessee law; so fill me in.

Shoplifting, battery, domestic violence, providing handguns to juveniles, ….and on and on. These are misdemeanors, and you are saying that Police Office has to witness them to make an arrest?

I would guess that Tennessee Police Officers have discretion on a misdemeanor, but not on a felony.

T.C.A. 40-7-103(a)(1) Grounds for arrest by officer without warrant. —

(a) An officer may, without a warrant, arrest a person:

(1) For a public offense committed or a breach of the peace threatened in the officer's presence;

Also T.C.A. 40-7-118((1) Use of citations in lieu of continued custody of an arrested person.

( (1) A peace officer who has arrested a person for the commission of a misdemeanor committed in the peace officer's presence, or who has taken custody of a person arrested by a private person for the commission of a misdemeanor, shall issue a citation to the arrested person to appear in court in lieu of the continued custody and the taking of the arrested person before a magistrate. If the peace officer is serving an arrest warrant or capias issued by a magistrate for the commission of a misdemeanor, it is in the discretion of the issuing magistrate whether the person is to be arrested and taken into custody or arrested and issued a citation in accordance with this section in lieu of continued custody. The warrant or capias shall specify the action to be taken by the serving peace officer who shall act accordingly.

Of course there are some misdemeanors in which an officer can make an arrest because the offense is ongoing, such as a DUI, and some other listed in the rest of the statutes above.

[Marswolf]

In the case of a misdemeanor, an individual may file the charges even if an officer does not view the offense. If your neighbor is breaking Tennessee's noisy auto stereo ordinance, for example you may bring charges as an individual. Sort of like a citizen's arrest.

[Guest 270win]

I did not mean to be personal when it came to my opinion regarding carrying in certain locations and confronting management. I just did not agree with the decision but should have stated in a more tactful manner.

The law is the law in Tennessee and thankfully Tennessee has not chosen to revoke people's permits for carrying in a legally 'posted' location. A fine is a fine and that is it. Most states do not even consider carrying in a 'posted' location enough to warrant a fine. Very few states allow people with licenses to be fined in 'posted' locations. Alabama, Florida, and Georgia come to mind off the top of my head.

[DaveTN]

T.C.A. 40-7-103(a)(1) Grounds for arrest by officer without warrant. —

(a) An officer may, without a warrant, arrest a person:

(1) For a public offense committed or a breach of the peace threatened in the officer's presence;

Also T.C.A. 40-7-118((1) Use of citations in lieu of continued custody of an arrested person.

( (1) A peace officer who has arrested a person for the commission of a misdemeanor committed in the peace officer's presence, or who has taken custody of a person arrested by a private person for the commission of a misdemeanor, shall issue a citation to the arrested person to appear in court in lieu of the continued custody and the taking of the arrested person before a magistrate. If the peace officer is serving an arrest warrant or capias issued by a magistrate for the commission of a misdemeanor, it is in the discretion of the issuing magistrate whether the person is to be arrested and taken into custody or arrested and issued a citation in accordance with this section in lieu of continued custody. The warrant or capias shall specify the action to be taken by the serving peace officer who shall act accordingly.

Of course there are some misdemeanors in which an officer can make an arrest because the offense is ongoing, such as a DUI, and some other listed in the rest of the statutes above.

Good post. Those links and the multitude of links contained in them authorize a misdemeanor arrest under every possible condition.

I’m still unclear as to what misdemeanors that you can commit that you can't be arrested for if there is a complainant.

[Fallguy]

Well both of the above state "in the officer's presence". So he may be able to arrest on any misdemeanor, but other than situations listed, the misdemeanor has to occur in the officer's presence.

At least that is they way I read it.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

The way Judge Bevill explained it in class was I can't be arrested for jaywalking (misdemeanor) unless the officer sees it while I'm doing it. He cannot arrest me after the fact when someone tells him they saw me jaywalking. Same with misdemeanor drug possession. If you have a joint in your pocket when he pulls you over the cop can arrest you because it was misdemeanor possession IN HIS PRESENCE. He cannot arrest you LATER after someone tells him you had it but you don't have it any more.....

So by same logic the cop would have to witness you carrying, and not just carrying,( because if he just sees you out on the street carrying with a permit that is legal) but they'd have to witness you carrying WHERE it is illegal. And unless you are on video carrying where it is not OK to carry it is largely a matter of their word (the business) against yours UNLESS the cops see you doing it. But then again WHY is your gun visible to begin with ? Why is the business filing a complaint? That largely solves a lot of the problem here......

Again I'm NOT suggesting any individual take any course of action.And this is not legal advice. Do people get arrested everyday for stuff that gets thrown out or for stuff that the DA chooses not to file charges on? Yes. Of course.

Again I'm not giving legal advice.

[Fallguy]

Well stated Luke. Also as Mars said...if you did witness the guy with the joint yourself or the ever evil jaywalker (Andy Griffith:)) you can file charges yourself. Also if an officer investigates the complaint he may get the persons information so you can file the complaint yourself if you don't know the person since the officer can't file the charge.

[DaveTN]

The way Judge Bevill explained it in class was I can't be arrested for jaywalking (misdemeanor) unless the officer sees it while I'm doing it. He cannot arrest me after the fact when someone tells him they saw me jaywalking. Same with misdemeanor drug possession. If you have a joint in your pocket when he pulls you over the cop can arrest you because it was misdemeanor possession IN HIS PRESENCE. He cannot arrest you LATER after someone tells him you had it but you don't have it any more.....

So by same logic the cop would have to witness you carrying, and not just carrying,( because if he just sees you out on the street carrying with a permit that is legal) but they'd have to witness you carrying WHERE it is illegal. And unless you are on video carrying where it is not OK to carry it is largely a matter of their word (the business) against yours UNLESS the cops see you doing it. But then again WHY is your gun visible to begin with ? Why is the business filing a complaint? That largely solves a lot of the problem here......

Again I'm NOT suggesting any individual take any course of action.And this is not legal advice. Do people get arrested everyday for stuff that gets thrown out or for stuff that the DA chooses not to file charges on? Yes. Of course.

Again I'm not giving legal advice.

So… the bank security guard or the bank manager tells you that you are carrying in violation of Tennessee law (If that’s the case, and I don’t know that it is) and that he is detaining you until the Police arrive. What are you going to do…. run?

[Fallguy]

First it is not illegal to carry into a bank in TN, unless it has a sign posted pursant to T.C.A. 39-17-1359

Secondly according to Tennessee Attorney General's Opinon No. 04-006 he can not detain you, without your consent, unless he arrest you.

So if there is a properly posted sign, you would be in trouble. If there is not a properly posted sign, you have not violated any law until when and if they ask you to leave and you don't. Then you have trespassed under T.C.A. 39-14-405

[Cruel Hand Luke]

And if you don't blunder about with your gun visible it never becomes an issue to begin with......