CCing when posting is not as TN says it should be.

[Guest jcramin]

Am I correct in thinking that places such as Value City or Waffle House who have their own version of NO GUN signs that are NOT as the state of Tennessee says they should be to make it a non-carry location, the worst that can happen is they can ask you to leave ?

You will not be breaking any state law or any non-carry location rule, you would be just breaking store policy ?

Is that correct ?

Thanks,

J

[Guest bkelm18]

As far as I know, they have to be posted in the manner that the state says to or else the signs don't count.

[Guest GT_Rat]

Ever wonder if some businesses post improperly intentionally to make the sheep feel better without actually prohibiting carry by law abiding citizens?

[jgrauman]

yes you are correct. there's a thread around here that has the exact wording that must be posted in order for it to be valid, in that thread the attorney general of TN discusses the validity of the signs and his interpretation of the law.

[Guest Hyaloid]

1.Owners of private property may prohibit the possession of handguns and other

weapons on their property. To be effective, the owner must post a written notice that satisfies the

requirements of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359(a), which states, in pertinent part:

Page 2

The notice shall be in English but a notice may also be posted in any language used

by patrons, customers or persons who frequent the place where weapon possession

is prohibited. In addition to the sign, notice may also include the international circle

and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle. The sign shall be

of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, premises

or property and shall contain language substantially similar to the following:

PURSUANT TO § 39-17-1359, THE OWNER/OPERATOR OF THIS PROPERTY

HAS BANNED WEAPONS ON THIS PROPERTY, OR WITHIN THIS

BUILDING OR THIS PORTION OF THIS BUILDING. FAILURE TO COMPLY

WITH THIS PROHIBITION IS PUNISHABLE AS A CRIMINAL ACT UNDER

STATE LAW AND MAY SUBJECT THE VIOLATOR TO A FINE OF NOT

MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($500).

The primary objective of statutory construction is to give effect to the intent of the

legislature.

See Cronin v. Howe, 906 S.W.2d 910, 912 (Tenn. 1995). If the language of a statute is clear and

unambiguous, the legislative intent must be ascertained by the plain and ordinary meaning of the

statutory language used. See Carson Creek Vacation Resorts, Inc. v. State, Dep’t of Revenue, 865

S.W.2d 1, 2 (Tenn. 1993).

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359(a) is clear and unambiguous. By its terms, it does not require

word-for-word use of the statutory language. All that is required is that the notice uses language that

is substantially similar to the language provided in the statute.

Here ya go!

[Guest Tombstone]

This is an interesting subject because I think it was in the thread that list the places that you can not carry. Two of the places that were lested were Target and Foothills Mall here in Blount county. Not sure if the Target store was here or elsewhere. But I have been to both and not seen any signs at the entrance.

I did read on the websight for the mall that there were no weapons allowed but nothing on any entrance.

Just curious, Am I missing something (Selective Blindness LOL)

I don't know about the rest of you but I haven't made a practice of pulling up web-sights of the places that I am going to see if CC is allowed.

[molonlabetn]

If the sign is not 'substantially similar' to the text noted in TCA 39-17-1359, it might as well not even be there. It is totally ignorable. Much like a sign which prohibits hats to be worn inside a business... it is not legally enforceable.

Neither individuals nor businesses can make laws, therefore signs are not law (unless they invoke a law, such as TCA 39-17-1359).

What you cannot ignore is the direct, individual confrontation and demand to leave of an owner or their representative of the property/business. That would be trespassing.

[overthemountain]

I am really glad to see some actual documentation about the signs.

Reading some additional opinions from the Attorney General:

1) A business can't JUST use the circle and slash symbol through a gun.

2) If there is more than one business in a building, the sign must be posted on the entrance to each business, not just the building entrance, unless carrying is prohibited on the entire property.

[Mike.357]

I don't know about the rest of you but if I see any sign saying something to the effect of NO GUN ALLOWED I am not going to go in if I have a gun on me. Pretty good chance there is. There are other options for lunch or furniture or whatever. And to me it is not worth having to prove to the man whether or not their sign was legal and sufficient.

[Guest sermon8r]

I don't know about the rest of you but if I see any sign saying something to the effect of NO GUN ALLOWED I am not going to go in if I have a gun on me. Pretty good chance there is. There are other options for lunch or furniture or whatever. And to me it is not worth having to prove to the man whether or not their sign was legal and sufficuent.

No Guns Allowed=You Dont Get My Money:D

[Guest jcramin]

Well thank you for all your answers and opinions. I did get the answer I was looking for here.

Thanks,

J

[Beretta Racer]

I have seen many places that "post" in a manner that isn't even close to the statute. Say, Verizon Wireless, small print on the door, just below "no dogs allowed" is " No Firearms". Banks like to bury the notice in and around other notices, like FDIC an so on.

I ignore those, if I have to go in, and don't go in to those I don't. They will never know I am carrying unless I have to use it.

[cadillacdude1975]

i agree on the no gun allowed = no money from me, but i have emailed the awful waffle many times quoting the TN law on placement of the signs and the exact wording that must be used. there is a gas station a mile or so away that has the old sign, saying it is a felony to carry a handgun on property where alcohol is SOLD or SERVED. that law was changed years ago.

it was some "hey buddy" guy and i informed him about the sign being incorrect and he looked at me like i was an idiot. i then emailed the city councilwoman for the district the store is in and i have not heard a word.

also ran into a liqour store a few weeks back, and was openly carrying and the cashier looks at me and points at the sign on the back wall of the establishment saying the same thing about firearms on property where alcohol is sold or served. i looked at the sign, then at her and replied your sign is wrongly posted and incorrectly worded. you need to get on the state website and make your self very informed on the legality of what your attempting to enforce. i then stated to her that she needs to tell the owner that the sign is invalid, no one can be arrested unless they refuse to leave upon you telling them no guns allowed, blah blah blah

to make it short and sweet, the cashier knew when i left that the sign was wrong and so was the place it was hung.

[strickj]

I thought it was any sign or any employ says no gun you have to comply

[cadillacdude1975]

you can get in trouble if your asked to leave and you refuse. but in tennessee where signage has force of law, the state has drawn out a basic law for how and where the sign is to be posted.

[DaveTN]

I don't know about the rest of you but if I see any sign saying something to the effect of NO GUN ALLOWED I am not going to go in if I have a gun on me.

+1.

You can be arrested for anything. I don’t want the Police called on me for anything; I want no interaction with them whatsoever.

I respect the rights of the business owner even if I don’t agree with them.

Get the legislature to pass laws removing any civil liability the business owner has for something you do; and watch some of these signs disappear.

[Guest canynracer]

+1.

You can be arrested for anything. I don’t want the Police called on me for anything; I want no interaction with them whatsoever.

I respect the rights of the business owner even if I don’t agree with them.

Get the legislature to pass laws removing any civil liability the business owner has for something you do; and watch some of these signs disappear.

+1

last thing I want is a firearm offense that can possibly result in me losing my permit

[Guest 270win]

Incorrectly worded signs (the state has a specific language for them and locations signs must be posted) absolutely mean nothing. The worst that can happen if someone sees your handgun is you can be asked to leave the property. If you do not leave, then you can have a trespassing problem. Other than that carry on. If you conceal your handgun (to each his own) you won't have people pointing at signs and thinking you are breaking a nonexistant law. Open carry is a nice idea in a state like Virginia, West Virginia, or Arizona, but it is kind of hairy in TN, considering how uncommon it is and there are a few places you can get popped for a misdemeanor (restaurants/bars and PROPERLY signed locations) and felony (courtroom during a judicial proceeding and school grounds) that to me it is not worth it. If i accidently walk into a place where i may be breaking the law, at least only i know i accidently walked into a restaurant that sells alcohol. No one else knows. Chili's and Outback haven't started installing metal detectors. People also mistakingly think you cannot carry in state and local governmental buildings. That is also false....how else would politicians and other non law enforcement types carry.....written directives from the sheriffs are limited to the same locations as handgun carry permits from the department of safety. A governmental building may have signs prohibiting it, but if no sign you're legal walking into your county clerk building to get a license plate...at worst you can get fined $500 bucks max...i don't think you can even get your handgun carry permit suspended over a $500 fine.

[Marswolf]

Some businesses have started changing the no gun "slash" signs out for one with proper wording. Bank of Tennessee did this. The Bristol Avoca Branch library has a legal sign these days. Someone may be going through educating the businesses and selling them legal posting signs.

I think we need to loudly protest these signs and quit doing business with posting locations.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Some businesses have started changing the no gun "slash" signs out for one with proper wording. Bank of Tennessee did this. The Bristol Avoca Branch library has a legal sign these days. Someone may be going through educating the businesses and selling them legal posting signs.

I think we need to loudly protest these signs and quit doing business with posting locations.

Bank of TN is somewhat my fault... I complained about them prohibiting carry. I met with the VP of one of the Banks for lunch and voiced my concerns. During our meeting, which was congenial enough I suppose, I told him that the signs weren't even legal, and he asked if I'd forward the correct verbiage to him, which I did.

Now Bank of TN is 'properly' posted. This fellow took my complaint and made things worse. He used this as an opportunity to put a feather in his cap, so to speak, with his superiors, and I am pissed off as hell about it. The way to solve a legitimate customer complaint is NOT to make it worse and further your own agenda at the expense of your customer.

I have made my displeasure known, and am in the process of figuring out the details of moving the loans and accounts for my business, but it is complicated.

[Marswolf]

Didn't the posting thing at BOT start with some permitted customer going ass-hole on them?

[Guest Hyaloid]

Didn't the posting thing at BOT start with some permitted customer going ass-hole on them?

Yeah... according to the VP, it was a security guard (customer, not bank's) that was on the ohone with his girlfriend, became agitated, and unholstered his weapon and began waving it around... which rightfully unnerved some of the tellers, so they decided 'to be fair' to prohibit all firearms... except for LEOs of course .

Despite my efforts to show how UN-fair this policy is, the VP decided to 'make it official', and now properly posted the property despite my objections... but don't worry, he 'understands where I am coming from'...

[DaveTN]

Yeah... according to the VP, it was a security guard (customer, not bank's) that was on the ohone with his girlfriend, became agitated, and unholstered his weapon and began waving it around...

Did he go to jail?

[Guest canynracer]

Just out of curiosity...

dont we all know what the sign means? I mean reguardless of the verbiage used, it is their business...why not respect the fact that they dont want guns? going in and raising a stink about the sign not being legal and all that...just seems lame, yes, they may need to be "educated" but I have heard several people here say "no carry=no money"

that is your right, and I agree with that approach...

but to go in carrying because the signage isnt "legal" just to do it, IMO is rediculous. you know what it means, why not call the manager...they will end up "fixing" the sign, and you still wont be able to carry.

I am not trying to pick a fight here, just curious why some people feel inclined to start trouble on the technicalities. I mean, if I owned a business that had a slash going through a gun, and you came in telling me it wasnt legal, I would thank you then ask you if you understood what it meant...the obvious answer you will give is yes...then I will smile and thank you for your time.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Just out of curiosity...

dont we all know what the sign means? I mean reguardless of the verbiage used, it is their business...why not respect the fact that they dont want guns? going in and raising a stink about the sign not being legal and all that...just seems lame, yes, they may need to be "educated" but I have heard several people here say "no carry=no money"

that is your right, and I agree with that approach...

but to go in carrying because the signage isnt "legal" just to do it, IMO is rediculous. you know what it means, why not call the manager...they will end up "fixing" the sign, and you still wont be able to carry.

I am not trying to pick a fight here, just curious why some people feel inclined to start trouble on the technicalities. I mean, if I owned a business that had a slash going through a gun, and you came in telling me it wasnt legal, I would thank you then ask you if you understood what it meant...the obvious answer you will give is yes...then I will smile and thank you for your time.

It was the meaning of the sign that I had the discussion about, I didn't carry in the bank either. I informed the people in charge to let them know WHY I was not happy with their policy. Many times, if enough people do so, policies can change. If they don't know WHY you will not patronize their business, then it will NEVER change.

The discussion about the sign not being legal was almost an aside, but the VP took it and ran with it. In hindsight, knowing his reaction now, I probably would not have brought it up, but I cannot change that now.

So, you may think it is 'lame' top have a professional adult discussion with a higher up in a business to let them know that their policies are upsetting to a loyal customer. I didn't 'raise a stink', I had a cordial lunch with a fellow professional.

Sticking your head in the sand is not a viable approach to getting things changed. I actually own a business, and if I was losing patients because of a policy I instituted, I would want to know... even if I don't change it, I'd appreciate someone letting me know WHY they are upset with the policy. Maybe it's a bad policy, one rooted in ignorance, or is poorly presented to the patient. A patient that presents a valid complaint to a policy is revered in my mind, otherwise it may never change, and business would just decline. For each one that takes the time to 'complain' to you, 10 more are thinking the same thing.