922r confusion

[Guest Tygarys]

I'm confuzzled here..

I bought a Saiga 7.62x39 rifle recently and was looking to get hi-cap mags for it. Apparently if I do, I could run into a clinton-era law called 922r that could make it illegal to use those mags in my gun. (I thought that stuff went bye bye in 04?) So I was wondering if someone could help me clear this up, from what I understand:

1. I can covert the gun to use AK mags, but to keep it legal I have to do a complicated replacement of several other internal parts to US made ones.

or

2. I can buy mags made entirely in the USA, like Surefire or Promag to stay legal.

Do I have this right?

Edited December 30, 2009 by Tygarys

[MasterBlaster]

Totally, just stay out of Wal-Mart with it!

[Westwindmike]

Try this link. It may help.

922® Worksheet for Saiga Conversions

Gunwiki: 922® Worksheet for Saiga Conversions

[Guest 70below]

I believe, by 922r, if you "install" a US made mag without any other 922r compliance items, you are out of compliance. You are "assembling" a weapon with fewer than required US made parts.

[Idaho]

To use standard capacity mags you have to get the imported parts count down to 10 or less. According to the worksheet you are starting at 14.

A US made mag counts as 3, so if you replaced the stock you would be good to go.

Now the problem is that you can't use imported mags, only US made mags.

To legally use any AK mag you need to replace three different parts with US made parts in addition to the aforementioned stock. People typically replace the trigger, hammer, and disconector.

Play around with the worksheet a little. Once you understand what it is doing your options will be more clear.

btw I believe that you will find that replacing these parts is a lot easier than doing the actual conversion.

ID

Edited December 30, 2009 by Idaho

[mk19]

Maybe i am worng but if he uses a US made hicap it should be fine, since the gun is still keeping its sporterized figure. i.e not pistol grip or what not. but then again i could be wrong.

[Superman]

When I did the conversion I read it both ways. Some say you would be fine and others say no.

[turkeydad]

Since the Saiga is foreign made he should be able to use hi cap foreign made mags correct? Without any 922r issues

[Idaho]

From the website with the worksheet:

Adding a pistol grip or folding stock to one absolutely triggers 922®. However, it is not certain that converting one to accept AK-47 magazines automatically triggers a need for 922® compliance.

So if by conversion you mean that you are just changing the mag size and not changing to pistol grip/folding stock you 'may' be ok. When I heard conversion I was thinking AK style pistol grip.

[Mike.357]

I dunno about the 922r stuff. What is the point really? Does it matter if a part comes from the USA or Croatia or wherever?

Has anyone ever heard of any single person being prosecuted for a violation of this law?

My opinion in the OP's query is that f the mag is removable anyway, you are in no violation of 922r by using a mag of a different manufacturer no matter what country it came from.

I took the bayonet off my Yugo and put a bipod on it? Is that a violation?

[141FE]

Saiga has 15 parts that count. The link above to Gunwiki did not count the pistol grip because the stock Saiga does not have one. Regular AK has 16. Saiga muzzle is not threaded, so no muzzle device.

In order to use a magazine of greater than 10 rounds - no more than 10 of those parts can be made outside of the US. That's 922r in a nutshell.

Easiest and quickest is to us a US made magazine (3 parts) and the Tapco Intrafuse T6 Stock set - (2 parts). I have used the Tapco mags and they work fine. The stock can be changed in about 10 minutes.

Better, in my opinion, is to convert with Tapco fire control group (3 parts), US made pistol grip and stock (2 parts) and use surplus magazines.

I have done several conversions - it's not hard. Just do a search for "Saiga conversion" and you will find a step by step instruction.

Either way takes your non US parts count down to 10 and you'll be OK under 922r.

Edited December 30, 2009 by 141FE

[Guest 70below]

I dunno about the 922r stuff. What is the point really? Does it matter if a part comes from the USA or Croatia or wherever?

Has anyone ever heard of any single person being prosecuted for a violation of this law?

My opinion in the OP's query is that f the mag is removable anyway, you are in no violation of 922r by using a mag of a different manufacturer no matter what country it came from.

I took the bayonet off my Yugo and put a bipod on it? Is that a violation?

Realistically, it doesn't matter where a part comes from. But we're talking about politicians. The original purpose of the law as I understand, was to prevent the building of many types of weapons via parts kits

I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for this, but its one of those things where, if they began, how many people would have guns that didn't comply? And do you want to deal with that when (not if) it comes.

You're fine by taking your bayonet off, its not one of the parts that 922r defines as part of the "gun", however, the magazine body, floorplate, and follower are, that's why it violates 922r to replace it. Theoretically, you could be prosecuted for having a magazine that places your firearm out of compliance for "intent to construct".

Its a ridiculous law, but no ones fighting to have it changed.

[Superman]

Saiga's only have 14 parts, they do not have a pistol grip. If they did then they would not be complient when new and unmodified.

You're fine by taking your bayonet off, its not one of the parts that 922r defines as part of the "gun", however, the magazine body, floorplate, and follower are, that's why it violates 922r to replace it. Theoretically, you could be prosecuted for having a magazine that places your firearm out of compliance for "intent to construct".

Its a ridiculous law, but no ones fighting to have it changed.

According to gunwiki, it is ok to have a foreign magazine as long as it's not in the gun. They even link to a letter from the ATF

Gunwiki: Generic 922® Worksheet

To the OP you have to have a bullet feed guide installed in order to use any mil-surp mags. The stock saiga mags and surefire mags have the guide built in.

[Guest Tygarys]

Ok, lets see if I understand this right. I do not have any intention to try to convert this over to a standard AK, the rifle is fine for me as it is. I just want to use the hi-cap mags. The US made ones are fine, so to use them I only need to replace one more part to make it legal.

So,

1. Saiga out of the box = has 14 parts, but still legal as long as I use 10 round or less mags

2. With US made hi-cap = the 10 part rule comes into effect, so I just need to replace one part as the mags count as 3 parts.

Only congress could come up with something this confusing.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Tygarys
spelling

[Guest bkelm18]

Ok, lets see if I understand this right. I do not have any intention to try to convert this over to a standard AK, the rifle is fine for me as it is. I just want to use the hi-cap mags. The US made ones are fine, so to use them I only need to replace one more part to make it legal.

So,

1. Saiga out of the box = has 14 parts, but still legal as long as I use 10 round or less mags

2. With US made hi-cap = the 10 part rule comes into effect, so I just need to replace one part as the mags count as 3 parts.

Only congress could come up with something this confusing.

922r is really simple once you read through and understand it. And yes, you are correct on 1 and 2. Except 922r comes into effect when ANY hi-cap mag is used, not just a US one, however with a US mag, you have the benefit of only having to replace one more part. Probably the easiest would be replace the gas piston with a US made piston or find a US made stock that fits Saigas. Tapco makes them both I believe.

[Mike.357]

Originally Posted by 70below

You're fine by taking your bayonet off,

good to know the man won't be coming for me

[Guest Tygarys]

922r is really simple once you read through and understand it. And yes, you are correct on 1 and 2. Except 922r comes into effect when ANY hi-cap mag is used, not just a US one, however with a US mag, you have the benefit of only having to replace one more part. Probably the easiest would be replace the gas piston with a US made piston or find a US made stock that fits Saigas. Tapco makes them both I believe.

I think I'll just stick a Tapco stock on, that should keep it nice and legal.

[Moped]

When you buy your American made SUREFIRE Magazines (3 parts) (don't bother with Pro-Mags, your pissing your money away), you still must change out 2 more parts. The easiest part to change out is the hand guard (just one screw) and the stock (Tapco makes a stock for the Saiga with a pistol grip already attached) (three screws). You can also change out the gas piston, but you need a small punch and hammer to do the job. I don't believe you will be able to change out the trigger group as most, if not all the replacement sets I've seen are for a forward pistol grip conversion.

If you decide to use any other FOREIGN made hi cap mag, then you must also change out 5 other parts. And your pretty much going to have to move add a pistol grip and move it forward on the receiver in order to comply with 922R. In that case you could go ahead and change out the trigger group which counts as three parts and then add a new pistol grip and stock. Each of those counts one. Basically your changing the rifle back to what it was originally meant to be, a AK47.

There is some work involved with that. But there are some great aids on the internet for doing the conversion. One guy has filmed the entire process and placed it on YouTube. Saiga12.com is another TERRIFIC source of information. Join that site, even if you decide not to fool with the conversion.

One other thing you need to do if your going to use any other mag but a Saiga or Surefire, is drill and tap the trunnion (part of the receiver where the barrel is attached, just in front of the chamber) and attach a bullet guide. Guy by the name of Danzig makes these. You can find a link to his website over at Saiga12.com. As stated previouly, Saiga and Surefire Mags have the bullet guides attached to them.

I started the process for moving my pistol grip forward this afternoon. The reason I decided to do it was because my rifle came with 7 Galil 35 round mags when I bought it and I like them. My Saiga is a .223. So far it's not been hard, but I'm early in the process.

Personally, I'm not sure all this work is worth it, but I'm invested now. It would have probably been cheaper to purchase a new WASR Or IO AK for a hundred dollars more. But I also know I'm going to come out on the other end, knowing this rifle forwards and backwards. And it's keeping me occupied.

One more thing, I went to Coal Creek Armory and they wanted $650 dollars to change everything out. I almost choked. Just to install the pistol grip and replace the trigger assembly was going to run $250! Still trying to figure out why replacing a buttstock and foregrip costs another $400 though. Just about any moron can do that.

Someone linked that checklist for Saiga Conversion. That's a great little tool in determining what you need to do.

[Superman]

That is not correct you only need to change 1 more part after magazines. Saigas have 14 parts(no pistol grip) So US made mags is 3 parts and the buttstock is 1, plus you can change the fire control group without moving the trigger forwards. And with foreign made mags you only need to change 4 parts buttstock is 1 and FCG is 3

Edited December 31, 2009 by Superman

[Guest bkelm18]

Who the hell going to check your gun to see if you have the required US parts ????

Probably no one, but why risk it when you are breaking a federal firearms law? Better safe than sorry.

[Moped]

I stand corrected. It's a rather confusing law. When I used the Wiki that was linked previously, it showed that I needed to add 5 parts total as the pistol grip does not count since the Saiga is not equipped with a pistol grip to begin with. Now the Wiki is down. I've gone to the Saiga website to see if someone there can get it back up.

Honestly, those guys know this law inside and out and are the best source for those tyoe questions.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Moped