Help please??

[TLRMADE]

If this is not the right section please move it?

I have searched on the forums and the net and cannot find a clear answer. I have also asked others with carry permits who also do not know answers (which really kinda scares me).

1st question- What is the TN law for the use of deadly force by a HCP holder for the protection of another person?

2nd question- What is the official rule for carrying into restaurants and bars?

Thanks, and sorry if the answers are somewhere in the forums, i just couldn't find a clear and concise answer?

[TNTitan]

If this is not the right section please move it?

I have searched on the forums and the net and cannot find a clear answer. I have also asked others with carry permits who also do not know answers (which really kinda scares me).

1st question- What is the TN law for the use of deadly force by a HCP holder for the protection of another person?

2nd question- What is the official rule for carrying into restaurants and bars?

Thanks, and sorry if the answers are somewhere in the forums, i just couldn't find a clear and concise answer?

Ill take a stab at it...

1st answer: If you or a 3rd party are in fear of your life or serious injury, self defense (deadly force) can be justified.

2nd answer: no guns in alcohol selling establishments

[Garufa]

Ill take a stab at it...

2nd answer: no guns in alcohol selling establishments

That's alcohol serving establishments.

[Currently]

You will learn that and more when you take your HCP class.

Take it from a reputable instructor and all your questions will be answered.

[tntnixon]

But you better make damned sure that 3rd party has a right to self defense!!!

[rentalguy1]

That's alcohol serving establishments.

According to all of my LEO friends, that's alcohol SELLING establishments, too. However, they have all also told me if I broke up a robbery at the Quikie Mart with my CCW, nobody on the local department would make a issue of it.

Remember also on deadly force, it has to be what a "reasonable person" would perceive as a immediate threat of serious bodily harm or death. If grandpa is on the other side of a car threatening to whup yer a$$, that is not a real threat. If grandpa whips out a knife, it's still not a threat until he is on the same side of the car as you, and in close proximity. If grandpa pulls a handgun, send him on a one way journey to see his elders.

[TLRMADE]

Ill take a stab at it...

1st answer: If you or a 3rd party are in fear of your life or serious injury, self defense (deadly force) can be justified.

This statement makes me think it is legal. (if legal is the right word?)

[TLRMADE]

But you better make damned sure that 3rd party has a right to self defense!!!

And this makes me second guess it?

This is why I cant get a clear answer because I read all different statements?

[rentalguy1]

And this makes me second guess it?

This is why I cant get a clear answer because I read all different statements?

That means you need to be 100% positive that the third party isn't actually a criminal being apprehended by a undercover police officer (who would be the person you are about to shoot).

[saintsfanbrian]

When a person who otherwise would be able to use deadly force to stop a threat you can use deadly force to stop a threat for them.

Example, enraged girlfriend is taking a baseball bat to boyfriend. Justifiable because the possibility of serious bodily harm or death is imminent.

Enraged boyfriend is holding girlfriend by the arm - not justifiable because there is not an imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death. If boyfriend starts punching and you cannot stop him then there is a possibility that it would be justifiable.

Remember - you are looking at a "charge" of justifiable homicide". Not that it is legal for you to use deadly force only that it is a reasonable defense to a charge that could be brought.

As for "selling" alcohol - the answer is that if the establishment sells alcohol for ON SITE consumption you would be breaking the law to enter with a firearm.

If the establishment sells alcohol for consumption elsewhere you would not be breaking the law unless they have a legally posted sign by the front door. Many liquor stores do not have a legal sign as they want your dollars and for the soccer mom's to feel better.

I am not a lawyer but these were the answers told to very similar questions in my HCP class taught by reputable law enforcement officers and covering exactly what the state requires.

[TLRMADE]

I remember watching a video in my HCP class about a bank robber running out of the front of the bank and then running the other way. I understand that you are not in fear of your life in this instant unless he chooses to use deadly force against you or harm you.

What if you are in the gas station in line and a guy comes in and points a gun at the clerk, i would be in fear of my life so therefore i would use deadly force! How is that looked at '"By law"?

Also if i see someone kidnapping a child can I use deadly force? See this is where the line starts to get gray for me?

[saintsfanbrian]

Again a punch to the nose is not reasonable or an arse beating is not reasonable.

A punch to the nose could constitute a serious threat to imminent bodily harm or death. Remember the bones in the nose can be pushed in to the brain cavity and cause death.

P.S.

A search of this site turned up this by a lawyer:

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/15780-legal-perspectives-use-deadly-force.html

[TLRMADE]

A punch to the nose could constitute a serious threat to imminent bodily harm or death. Remember the bones in the nose can be pushed in to the brain cavity and cause death.

P.S.

A search of this site turned up this by a lawyer:

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/15780-legal-perspectives-use-deadly-force.html

Thank you

[TLRMADE]

A punch to the nose could constitute a

A search of this site turned up this by a lawyer:

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/15780-legal-perspectives-use-deadly-force.html

See this doesnt cover the protection of a 3rd party (ex kidnapping?)

[rentalguy1]

Saints...please post the statute so I can show it to my LEO friends. It makes more sense to me that way, but then again, the law hardly ever makes "sense."

TLRMADE... in your gas station scenario, it could go two ways. If the person with the gun is yelling "give me all the money!" then yes, it should be a justifiable shoot. If, however, the gunman is yelling "show me your hands!" or saying nothing at all, then you have no idea if he is a bad guy or a plain clothes LEO making a drug raid. Just be sure, before you pull the trigger. Your best bet in this situation would be to run for cover (while drawing your ccw and preparing to defend yourself and others), if you can, and then assess the situation a little better. It would suck to shoot a cop if you thought they were a BG.

I'm not sure on the kidnapping scenario. I'm interested to read other's posts on it, though. I'm not seeing the immediate threat in that one.

[strickj]

But you better make damned sure that 3rd party has a right to self defense!!!

According to all of my LEO friends, that's alcohol SELLING establishments, too. However, they have all also told me if I broke up a robbery at the Quikie Mart with my CCW, nobody on the local department would make a issue of it.

Remember also on deadly force, it has to be what a "reasonable person" would perceive as a immediate threat of serious bodily harm or death. If grandpa is on the other side of a car threatening to whup yer a$$, that is not a real threat. If grandpa whips out a knife, it's still not a threat until he is on the same side of the car as you, and in close proximity. If grandpa pulls a handgun, send him on a one way journey to see his elders.

That is incorrect.

You may carry in any place that sells alcohol.

It's only those that serve that is off limits.

39-17-1305. Possession of firearm where alcoholic beverages are served. —

(a) It is an offense for a person to possess a firearm within the confines of a building open to the public where liquor, wine or other alcoholic beverages, as defined in § 57-3-101(a)(1)(A), or beer, as defined in § 57-6-102(1), are served for on premises consumption.

( A violation of this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

© The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to a person who is:

(1) In the actual discharge of official duties as a law enforcement officer, or is employed in the army, air force, navy, coast guard or marine service of the United States or any member of the Tennessee national guard in the line of duty and pursuant to military regulations, or is in the actual discharge of duties as a correctional officer employed by a penal institution;

(2) On the person's own premises or premises under the person's control or who is the employee or agent of the owner of the premises with responsibility for protecting persons or property; or

[snip]

Legal Resources Edited December 28, 2009 by strickj

[TLRMADE]

Saints...please post the statute so I can show it to my LEO friends. It makes more sense to me that way, but then again, the law hardly ever makes "sense."

TLRMADE... in your gas station scenario, it could go two ways. If the person with the gun is yelling "give me all the money!" then yes, it should be a justifiable shoot. If, however, the gunman is yelling "show me your hands!" or saying nothing at all, then you have no idea if he is a bad guy or a plain clothes LEO making a drug raid. Just be sure, before you pull the trigger. Your best bet in this situation would be to run for cover (while drawing your ccw and preparing to defend yourself and others), if you can, and then assess the situation a little better. It would suck to shoot a cop if you thought they were a BG.

I'm not sure on the kidnapping scenario. I'm interested to read other's posts on it, though. I'm not seeing the immediate threat in that one.

Yes i remember the Undercover LEO scenario in my class.

[Guest bkelm18]

Nevermind, strick beat me to it.

[rentalguy1]

Thanks strickj. That actually covers the question I was pondering in the "please help" thread, too.

I'll discuss this with one of my LEO friends on Tuesday...while we are shopping for a new AR for him

[TLRMADE]

So I think the restraunt/bar/serving alcohol question has been answered.

What about for the protection of a 3rd party such as kidnapping?

Sorry if i seem annoying or like a post whore, but it seems like there are a lot of others who have the same questions, and by some of the answers it seems as if some of them have been wrong?

[Fallguy]

According to all of my LEO friends, that's alcohol SELLING establishments, too. However, they have all also told me if I broke up a robbery at the Quikie Mart with my CCW, nobody on the local department would make a issue of it.

That is very, very, very wrong.

Many years ago it was illegal in places that both served and sold alchol, but that changed several years ago to only places that served it for onsite consumption.

Also to note the law was changed this year to allow carry in restaurants that serve alcohol, but that law was ruled void by a judge, so it is again illegal to carry in places that serve alcohol for onisite consumption.

See 39-17-1305

As far as the defense of others.

39-11-612 Defense of third person.

A person is justified in threatening or using force against another to protect a third person, if:

(1)

Under the circumstances as the person reasonably believes them to be, the person would be justified under §

39-11-611

in threatening or using force to protect against the use or attempted use of unlawful force reasonably believed to be threatening the third person sought to be protected; and

(2)

The person reasonably believes that the intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

So what is basically saying is if you feel that self defense under 39-11-611 would be justified you can use that force to protect a 3rd person.

See 39-11-611

May also want to see http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/firearms-law-faq/13408-reference-material-some-basic-questions.html

[Guest bkelm18]

So I think the restraunt/bar/serving alcohol question has been answered.

What about for the protection of a 3rd party such as kidnapping?

Sorry if i seem annoying or like a post whore, but it seems like there are a lot of others who have the same questions, and by some of the answers it seems as if some of them have been wrong?

Bud, your best bet is to talk to a lawyer. None of us here (well most of us) are qualified to give you a clear and definitive answer to your questions.

[strickj]

You may protect a third party the same as you would protect yourself.

The law says "fear of..."

For each person that is a little different. If you're being attacked by an unarmed dweeb, and you're a 300 MMA fighter, you wouldn't have the same defense as an 80 yo woman.

[TLRMADE]

Bud, your best bet is to talk to a lawyer. None of us here (well most of us) are qualified to give you a clear and definitive answer to your questions.

Yea I really need to. I just think its odd how many people on here have a HCP and carry on a daily basis and don't know the answer the these what seem like simple questions?

[Fallguy]

Yea I really need to. I just think its odd how many people on here have a HCP and carry on a daily basis and don't know the answer the these what seem like simple questions?

There are very few, if any, clear shoot-don't shoot situations you can describe on an internet forum.

There are just too many variables to try and consider when making a post about something.