Is a Sporterized Rifle still C&R?

[Guest Fenris]

Do you have to fill out a bound book entry for a C&R rifle that has been sporterized?

I've done some searches, but couldn't find anything definite.

[Garufa]

My understanding is once a rifle is sporterized it is no longer C&R. Therefore I would think you do not have to record it.

[R1100R]

I think only if you purchased it with your C&R license you have to put it in your bound book.

[Guest bkelm18]

I think only if you purchased it with your C&R license you have to put it in your bound book.

No. Any C&R item you own must be logged into the bound book, regardless of whether or not you used your license to purchase it.

That being said, I'm pretty sure once you "sporterize" a C&R gun it loses its C&R status.

[Capbyrd]

No. Any C&R item you own must be logged into the bound book, regardless of whether or not you used your license to purchase it.

That being said, I'm pretty sure once you "sporterize" a C&R gun it loses its C&R status.

No. Any C&R firearm you purchase after you have a C&R must be logged into your book. Any that you owned prior to acquiring your C&R do not have to be in the book.

[Guest Fenris]

No. Any C&R item you own must be logged into the bound book, regardless of whether or not you used your license to purchase it.

Well, I was given a 91/30 before I got my C&R. That's what got me started in getting it. I was originally told by some C&R holders that I did not have to log that in since it pre-dated my license. Do I need to log that?

[Guest bkelm18]

No. Any C&R firearm you purchase after you have a C&R must be logged into your book. Any that you owned prior to acquiring your C&R do not have to be in the book.

Pretty much what I said.

[Capbyrd]

Well, I was given a 91/30 before I got my C&R. That's what got me started in getting it. I was originally told by some C&R holders that I did not have to log that in since it pre-dated my license. Do I need to log that?

No. If it pre-dates your license then no worries.

Pretty much what I said.

Minus the part about items that pre-date your license. I am not trying to get into a pissing match or anything. I just want to make sure that this is clear for people because this has been very hazy for me.

[Guest Fenris]

No, that makes perfect sense. I replied with my question before your response showed up on my screen.

My pre-license MN doesn't need to be bound and neither does a sporterized one I am about to get.

Thank you, all.

[1gewehr]

ANY firearm over 50 years old is a C&R. A firearm is defined as the 'Frame or receiver'. As long as you use the original frame or receiver, it's a C&R. That whole 'original configuration' argument only applies to importing firearms.

[Guest Fenris]

OK, did some digging and found this from Collecting and Shooting the Military Surplus Rifle (2005) - Surplusrifle.com

Which is a compiled list of questions to the ATF in regards to C&R. I'm reading this as I do not need to record the purchase of a sporterized C&R gun.

Q: Must a surplus military firearm be in its original configuration to be “C&R” eligible?

A: Yes, and relevant information can be found in ATF ruling 85-10 (see below)

Then 85-10, which does relate to imports, but was referenced in the general question above.

In classifying firearms as curios or relics under this regulation, ATF has recognized only assembled firearms as curio or relics. Moreover, ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers or curios or relics and surplus military firearms not in their original military configuration were not generally recognized as curios or relics by ATF since they were not of special interest or value as collector’s items.

[Garufa]

ANY firearm over 50 years old is a C&R. A firearm is defined as the 'Frame or receiver'. As long as you use the original frame or receiver, it's a C&R. That whole 'original configuration' argument only applies to importing firearms.

Inaccurate.

[Magiccarpetrides]

From your research Fenris it appears a certain Mosin need not be put in the book...heck its missing the all important bayonet lug ;-D

[Guest Fenris]

I'm pretty jazzed. Trying to decide if I want a pipe or a stogie for the drive :-) See you tomorrow.

[Guest HvyMtl]

Good Job Fenris,

Going to the horse's mouth, or in this case the ATF website, was a wise decision.

I am looking into a C&R License, as it seems it would save considerable $...

[I_Like_Pie]

ANY firearm over 50 years old is a C&R. A firearm is defined as the 'Frame or receiver'. As long as you use the original frame or receiver, it's a C&R. That whole 'original configuration' argument only applies to importing firearms.

Yes...this is true 50+ and not otherwise restricted is and will always be C&R - Sporterized or not. You can quote all you want from other sources, but if you have proof of over 50 years it is C&R. This is in the BATF book word for word.

The items you purchase using your C&R license is the only thing that goes in the bound book. If you buy a 50+ year old gun from a dealer and process it with a background check it does NOT have to be recorded. ONLY items that use the power of the 03 FFL need to be recorded. For example buying a 50+ year old gun in another state, from a 01 FFL via mail order or 01 acquisition done by giving a copy of your 03. Ths is a grey area that a lot of people are confused by....so there is no real harm in recording in the book "to make sure" - but the law does not require.

if you have a bunch of old guns before you got your 03 ffl you are not required to retroactively record them.

Edited December 25, 2009 by I_Like_Pie

[lacon]

I sense some confusion about the 50 year rule & the "LIST".

Anything between 1900 & 50 years ago (about to be 1959 - can't subtract from the current year unless you know the actual month of manufacture) is a C&R. Military has nothing to do with it. If you look at the "LIST" included with your license, you will see a lot of less than 50 year old guns that are C&R because they have been given that status by the ATF. Some military guns as well as a lot of the commerative catagory of newly manufactured guns are on the list. These are the ones that can lose their C&R status if they are modified such that they are changed to reflect a different caracter. This is where it gets a little fuzzy, & different people have different views about what changes a guns character. It really will only come up when it is sold, & then it's the seller who decides what he wants in terms of paperwork as well as price.

[Guest 70below]

The items you purchase using your C&R license is the only thing that goes in the bound book. If you buy a 50+ year old gun from a dealer and process it with a background check it does NOT have to be recorded. ONLY items that use the power of the 03 FFL need to be recorded. For example buying a 50+ year old gun in another state, from a 01 FFL via mail order or 01 acquisition done by giving a copy of your 03. Ths is a grey area that a lot of people are confused by....so there is no real harm in recording in the book "to make sure" - but the law does not require.

I don't believe this to be correct. There have been several letters generated by BATFE regarding this. Most specifically state that any C&R firearm acquired or disposed of after RECEIPT of the C&R license (not WITH the license) must be logged in your bound book. I'm looking for the site I saw an actual scanned letter regarding this. So far this is the closest I've found. A C&R question that's messin' with my head. - TheFiringLine Forums

There are also several BATFE references to firearms obtained from CMP being required to be logged. No license was required to purchase from CMP, but the firearms must still be logged.

EDIT: Here is one version of the letter I have seen......note it says ALL C&R's must be logged after the RECEIPT of the C&R License.......NOT in which the C&R license was used to acquire.

http://www.cruffler.com/BATFOpenLetterToC&RHolders.pdf

Edited December 25, 2009 by 70below

[DMark]

Here is where the confusion comes from.

ATF's website has a Q&A section where the following is stated:

"Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm."

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions

But that is not what ATF Pub 5300.11 states. It states that all firearms become C&R at 50 years (page 2). And that "original configuration" only applies to imported military firearms (page 10).

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-11.pdf

Go with the published regulations. The website Q&A is just a quick answer that is a summary of the regulations found in ATF Pub 5300.11

[TMMT]

Leave it to the ATF to screw it up...