Gangs: What would YOU do to clean them up?

[Guest logicprevails]

That's why I go back and forth on that point. My gut tells me not to legalize, but then I wonder if if may actually help.

I'm kind of with you there. IMHO the main attribute of weed that precludes the govt's interest in legalization and regulation is that it is a 'weed' and will grow anywhere. Alcohol is derived from a multi-stage production process, tobacco is a labor intensive cultivar, firearms are manufactured and serialized. As long as a stoner can easily grow weed in his closet or in the woods in the City park behind his house, we'll likely never see the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Ganja because they have no means of control (perceived or real).

[DaveTN]

I disagree. And you left out the third problem, denial. And it ain't a river in Egypt.

When I moved here from L.A. 20 years ago, I could clearly see evidence of gangs moving in and for a decade, the official police line was that there was no gang problems here. They did nothing to stem the tide, and now it's out of control.

Separate the political rhetoric of city administration from the cops on the street. Nashville is a city that is dependent on tourism; they will say anything to protect that. However, I have never heard Serpas say there is no gang problem.

Gangs are not supported by pot heads buying a little weed. They are supported by crack, meth, armed robberies, car jacking, and intimidation. Legalizing pot while have little or no impact on gangs.

[tntnixon]

Criminal minds will always find illegal things to do for a profit. Think about it. Shipping cargo is perfectly legal in the US but organized crime has infiltrated our shipping system and profitted from it. Gambling is legal in Nevada, but gangs have found ways to profitteer from that, too. There is a whole miriad of "legal" activities in the US that gangs will find a way to infiltrate and profitteer from.

Let's also not forget drugs were legal in the US, and it didn't work out so well because people that are high on drugs have a tendency not to want to work and doing crazy things. If one doesn't work, they still need money to buy drugs and food, on occasion. Therefore, they end up robbing people (this was happening quite a lot at the turn of the 20th Century) and thus we illegalized drugs.

I tend to be very Libertarian, but I also realize that we can't just legalize everything because people do them anyway. That, my freind, is a recipe for anarchy and a society that simply will not and can not work.

Societies must have norms or they will implode upon themselves. We have been on the fast track to destroying those norms for the past forty years and look what it has gotten us. If we want that trend to continue, by all means, legalize everything. But if we, at some point, want to stop this tide, we must go back to our roots and values. But alas, I have very little hope of that happening.

[Guest HexHead]

Separate the political rhetoric of city administration from the cops on the street. Nashville is a city that is dependent on tourism; they will say anything to protect that. However, I have never heard Serpas say there is no gang problem.

I was referring to the two chiefs that preceded him, Kirchner and Turner.

Gangs are not supported by pot heads buying a little weed. They are supported by crack, meth, armed robberies, car jacking, and intimidation. Legalizing pot while have little or no impact on gangs.

I'm not sure I agree, there have been some pretty big pot busts and that's not just some enterprising individual. I'll have to ask my former drug detective buddy about that next time I talk to him.

But if it's legalized, you can be sure gangs will move into it using the legitimate business as a front.

[Guest Arko]

I wish we as a society could agree to quick extermination of offenders with multiple violent crime convictions. At least that would begin to make room in prisons!

[Guest HexHead]

Criminal minds will always find illegal things to do for a profit. Think about it. Shipping cargo is perfectly legal in the US but organized crime has infiltrated our shipping system and profitted from it. Gambling is legal in Nevada, but gangs have found ways to profitteer from that, too. There is a whole miriad of "legal" activities in the US that gangs will find a way to infiltrate and profitteer from.

Alcohol is legal, and yet they're still making moonshine east of us.

Let's also not forget drugs were legal in the US, and it didn't work out so well because people that are high on drugs have a tendency not to want to work and doing crazy things. If one doesn't work, they still need money to buy drugs and food, on occasion. Therefore, they end up robbing people (this was happening quite a lot at the turn of the 20th Century) and thus we illegalized drugs.

And if it's pot that's legalized, the food will be more than just occasionally.

[poak]

I'm not sure I agree, there have been some pretty big pot busts and that's not just some enterprising individual. I'll have to ask my former drug detective buddy about that next time I talk to him.

But if it's legalized, you can be sure gangs will move into it using the legitimate business as a front.

I'm in agreement w/ you over gangs being involved in pot sales.

One has to realize that high-grade marijuana can sell at near gold prices. That's right, something that you can GROW (and quite quickly and easily after all, it's a weed) can be sold at a price near that of precious metals.

[Guest HexHead]

I wish we as a society could agree to quick extermination of offenders with multiple violent crime convictions. At least that would begin to make room in prisons!

We could learn a thing or two from Honduras and Columbia.

[tntnixon]

One more thing, people are under the impression that making dugs legal will drive the prices down, making it less enticing to the criminal element. It is my understanding, though I no personal experience, that drugs are just as expensive, if not more so, in Holland, where everything is legal.

Prostitution is leagal in Nevada and illegal in TN. Call a woman of the night in Nashville and get her rate, then call one of the "ranches" in Nevada and see where you get the better quote.

[1gewehr]

There are lots of parallels between narcotics and alcohol regulation. Prior to 1913 there were no controls on either. Alcoholism was pretty common at about 6% of the population. Narcotic abuse was about 3%.

Then comes Prohibition, alcoholism showed NO DECLINE! As controls on narcotics were implemented, drug abuse went UP. When Prohibition was repealed, alcoholism started to decline.

After the War on Drugs was announced by Nixon, narcotics sales started to rise. They have fluctuated over the years, but there has been no decline. Today, narcotics abuse is STILL about 3%!!! Cocaine prices are lower than they were ten years ago in spite of the billions we have spent to keep it out of the country.

My view on gangs is simple. If a person is a violent felon and danger to society, then they should be locked up when caught and convicted. If they are not a dangerous person, then they should be out working to pay restitution to their victims. A person who accidentally commits vehicular manslaughter is not a danger to society and should be working to provide restitution for the legal, medical, and other bills caused by their poor judgment. A person who purposely murders another person is a murderer and should receive either a death penalty or life imprisonment based on severity. A serial rapist is a menace and should be locked up for life.

The whole plea bargain/parole system is an injustice to the law-abiding citizen. It inflicts society with serial violent offenders and imprisons those who are not threat to others.

[Guest spoolie]

I stick by my first post....judge dread style, on the spot termination. A .22/.38 is cheaper than the expense of lock up/trial/transportation/food/lock up/paperwork...etc.

Our prisons are overpopulated with bull**** charges, we need to quit being ******* and start executions of harden criminals to free up more space for people that get convicted of tax evasion or whatnot. We waste too much money trying to "rehab" these ****ing idiots to release the animals back into society so they can end up locked down again within a few weeks/months.

[willis68]

Execute on the spot when caught. 0 tolerance.

+10,000

[trblmkr13]

I disagree. And you left out the third problem, denial. And it ain't a river in Egypt.

When I moved here from L.A. 20 years ago, I could clearly see evidence of gangs moving in and for a decade, the official police line was that there was no gang problems here. They did nothing to stem the tide, and now it's out of control.

I think your math is off HexHead in 89 the Crips and Bloods had huge numbers maybe your thinking of 30 years ago?

[tntnixon]

A person who accidentally commits vehicular manslaughter is not a danger to society and should be working to provide restitution for the legal, medical, and other bills caused by their poor judgment.

How much is your son/daughter/wife/mother/father worth in "restitution"? I deal with innocent patients and there families all the time who have been victims of this crime. There is nothing "accidental" about driving drunk. It is a purposeful act from the onset. One has to know that they are going to drink and might possibly need transportation afterwards. I've never has alcohol poured down my throat and forced to drive at gunpoint. Have you?Someone shouldn't die or be maimed for the rest of there lives because someone else found it inconvenient to call a cab or have a sober ride.

And as for your assertion that Nixon's "war on drugs" caused an increase in drug use, you are way off. Drug use was rising and that prompted the "war on drugs", not vice versa. Do you know nothing of the sixtie's counterculture that was emerging? And guess what, the rise in drug use did not happen until then, some 50 years after drugs were illegalized.

Edited December 21, 2009 by tntnixon

[willis68]

How much is your son/daughter/wife/mother/father worth in "restitution"? I deal with innocent patients and there families all the time who have been victims of this crime. There is nothing "accidental" about driving drunk. It is a purposeful act from the onset. One has to know that they are going to drink and might possibly need transportation afterwards. I've never has alcohol poured down my throat and forced to drive at gunpoint. Have you?

Someone shouldn't die or be maimed for the rest of there lives because someone else found it inconvenient to call a cab or have a sober ride.

Very well stated, I totally agree

[DaveTN]

We are getting off topic. Execution is not an answer for gang activity.

[trblmkr13]

Every step we have taken to combat gangs has failed and only increased there numbers.

1st we have to secure the border members of MS-13 are deported everyday and walk right back into the country, I know they use tunnels as well and that should be a capitol offense.

Next we have to help Mexico take down the drug lords that run there county they have more Guns and Money than the Mexican Govt.

Then we will need to divise a plan per gang to eliminate them I don't think a one size fits all approach will work.

Just my

[Guest HexHead]

I think your math is off HexHead in 89 the Crips and Bloods had huge numbers maybe your thinking of 30 years ago?

Not here in Nashville they didn't, yet. Not huge numbers, but gang activity was definitely here. The official police line then was that we didn't have a gang problem. So nothing was done to stem the tide.

[tntnixon]

We are getting off topic. Execution is not an answer for gang activity.

Actually, I believe it is. During the first part of the American Experiment (pre-Warren Court), execution was practiced for many crimes and not just murder, horse theivery comes to mind. The courts, including the ones that were around during the days of our founding fathers, never failed to uphold the constitutionality of this practice. When the words of the constitution have not changed, why do the courts not follow the precidents of the wise old men who came before them, some of whom actually wrote and ratified the document?

[Guest HexHead]

We are getting off topic. Execution is not an answer for gang activity.

Maybe not your answer because you still think like a cop? I got news for you pal, your way ain't working.

[Guest db99wj]

Gang problems don't go away, they just move, for example, here in Memphis, several years ago, there was a gang problem on the streets, they "rounded them up", put them in Jail, then there was a gang problem in the jails. This is what we were told by the judge on the murder trial I was a juror on (gang related, gangsta disciples). Memphis still has a gang problem. Our pot busts are usually on I-40. You will see the black Tahoe's with dark tinted windows....they don't care if you are speeding, but if you have tinted windows, a van, Texas/Louisiana Plates and some other characteristics...be prepared to pull over. I have a friend, on the police force, pot is not their primary objective, however, if there is a big deal going on, they won't ignore it.

Here's a thought that I have had. Lets label gang related crime as "Domestic Terrorism". Anything gang related is Federal charges. Not sure if the Terrorism angle and the fed will add to it, but putting a bunch of gang members in the same jail here locally doesn't solve anything. That is just business as usual.

You go to the movies in Memphis, not sure what the draw of the movies is but it is a draw, and you will start seeing these "thugs" with their bright colored M&M coats on, their bright colored stock car coats on and other "gang looking" clothing on and you, well at least I, get in a very defensive mind set. It's to the point, I don't go to the movies, unless it is during the day, and my kids are begging!

[trblmkr13]

Not here in Nashville they didn't, yet. Not huge numbers, but gang activity was definitely here. The official police line then was that we didn't have a gang problem. So nothing was done to stem the tide.

I thought you where talking about LA in 89

[willis68]

We are getting off topic. Execution is not an answer for gang activity.

Can you think of a better way to detour it? They obviously do not mind being locked up in prison, hell that just makes them stronger. If there was a Death penalty for being a Gang member and it was imposed immediately, it would not only save millions of dollars but would put an end to this crap once and for all. It sounds like a damn good answer to me

[Guest HexHead]

I thought you where talking about LA in 89

Oh yeah, it was very big there then, and one of the reasons we left. I got tired of every night on the news they'd recap the body counts of the day's drive by shootings. We lived in N. Hollywood, the nice part that since changed it's name to Valley Village. My wife grew up there, in fact just nine houses down the street from where we were living. My kids rode their tricycles on the same sidewalk their mom did. She took it very personally when the tagging started in her 'hood.

[DaveTN]

Maybe not your answer because you still think like a cop? I got news for you pal, your way ain't working.

How would you know how I am thinking? My way is not being tried.