Gangs: What would YOU do to clean them up?

[Guest Arko]

Sitting here watching Gangland, and they're focusing on Atlanta. It seems gangs are "claiming" more and more territory, and "working" in more suburban counties than ever.

I see this stuff and my blood boils. Why we've become so tolerant of crime in general, and so unwilling to forcefully eradicate these thugs is beyond me.

I'm just curious as to what anyones thoughts are on what could be done, why we aren't tougher now, and what if any unintended consequences could arise from more aggressive enforcement/punishment.

Personally, in simplistic terms I think they should be hunted down like jackals, as we already know they're all scum of the earth and don't deserve due process, but yes, I realize that itself is a slippery slope to potential usurption of our own liberty, yada yada...

So, what would YOU do?

[Guest spoolie]

Execute on the spot when caught. 0 tolerance.

[Guest Revelator]

Legalizing certain drugs would put a big hole in the pockets of organized criminal networks everywhere, and I think would lead to some pretty quick disbandment and collapse. Have they admitted yet that the war on drugs has been a gigantic exercise in futility? Thinking differently and coming up with effective ways to solve problems, whether domestically or internationally, has not been this country's strong suit for some time now, and I think is a big reason why the US is in a slow slide toward mediocrity, bankruptcy, and, maybe one day, oblivion.

[Chucktshoes]

As viscerally satisfying as hunting them down like packs of coyotes might be, I don't think anything of that nature would help. This is a large and complicated problem that has relation to the situation in Iraq and I think we could take some lessons from the "hearts & minds" strategy.

First, Reverse these ignorant and counterproductive buyback programs and instead give firearms training and access to inexpensive firearms to the good citizens living in those neighborhoods. If every grandma and grandpa had a gun on them might give young thug # 2 a second thought.

Second, change the use of force laws to something more like Texas where force is authorized for defense of property.

Third (this is where hearts & minds comes in), organize armed neighborhood watch groups of folks who won't tolerate that kind of mess. Basically neighborhood militias. Nothing can be done about the gang problems until the good people who live with them won't tolerate them and expel them themselves. The key is to give them the means to do so, and for that we need to break the force monopoly of the gangs.

And what P. Stegall said about narcotics legalization as well. Defunding the gangs would go a long way.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Chucktshoes

[pitt2magic]

Sadly we have waited so long to do anything that in many major cities the gang members greatly out number the police and surely have more firepower. Unless you are going to bring in the military to help i dont know if there is much to be done.

[pitt2magic]

As viscerally satisfying as hunting them down like packs of coyotes might be, I don't think anything of that nature would help. This is a large and complicated problem that has relation to the situation in Iraq and I think we could take some lessons from the "hearts & minds" strategy.

First, Reverse these ignorant and counterproductive buyback programs and instead give firearms training and access to inexpensive firearms to the good citizens living in those neighborhoods. If every grandma and grandpa had a gun on them might give young thug # 2 a second thought.

Second, change the use of force laws to something more like Texas where force is authorized for defense of property.

Third (this is where hearts & minds comes in), organize armed neighborhood watch groups of folks who won't tolerate that kind of mess. Basically neighborhood militias. Nothing can be done about the gang problems until the good people who live with them won't tolerate them and expel them themselves. The key is to give them the means to do so, and for that we need to break the force monopoly of the gangs.

Sorry dude, your post makes way too much sense to ever really happen in America.

[Guest Drewsett]

Legalizing certain drugs would put a big hole in the pockets of organized criminal networks everywhere, and I think would lead to some pretty quick disbandment and collapse. Have they admitted yet that the war on drugs has been a gigantic exercise in futility? Thinking differently and coming up with effective ways to solve problems, whether domestically or internationally, has not been this country's strong suit for some time now, and I think is a big reason why the US is in a slow slide toward mediocrity, bankruptcy, and, maybe one day, oblivion.

I did a fairly significant research paper on the financial impact of legalizing marijuana...long story short, if you were to legalize it and regulate it (tax at the prevailing rate of cigarette taxes) the country could potentially add 300+ billion dollars to GDP, and that isn't counting the rise in purchases of paraphenalia and such.

That could be one potential silver lining of an Obama administration, but I don't see them taking it on.

Oh and no, I'm not a pothead, just a libertarian who would love to see us stop wasting money on the drug war. Some guy wants to fry his brain on drugs? Fine with me as long as he does it in the privacy of his own home...no public intoxication just as with alcohol.

Oh and if certain drugs are made legal and regulated...there won't be enough money in them anymore for these gangbangers to want to kill each other over them. Maybe inner city kids will dream of getting an education instead of dream of being a big time dealer and pimp.

[kwe45919]

It'll always be politics vs. police vs. bad guys = taxpayer/citizen paying more money for less protection while not being able to stand up for themselves or their community.......... which in turn allows the bad guys to creep out of the depths of the "city" to the outskirts and start pulling thier same old crap.

Everyone's scared to fight much less fight back these days. They've been sheepled to "allow" the police to handle it....but what then?? You're a victim who did nothing to deserve what was done to you.....now they say "let us handle it!" More and more people have let this happen to them. The bad guys know that intimidation and force will usually over come the victim allowing the bad guy to gain more confidence with every wrong doing. It's insane that people allow others to "walk over them" or think that being a victim is better than fighting and attempting to save yourself or others. Tons of those people usually end up dead vs. the ones who fight back. People aren't brave anymore which is why today's society has become so "tollerant" to this rediculas "gangsta" behavior.

So....you ask what are we gona do. Well, their's the logical answers which could include shooting "gangsta" violaters on the spot for wrong doing....or go ahead and start up "ol' smokey The Chair" and eliminate the need to house and feed death row inmates in a few hours. All of which are seemingly becomming better and better ideas everyday. But what sayth the communities??

When are we as a community, as a city, county or as a state gona step up and say, enough is enough. Cops can't be everywhere and it's time to push back. Time to stand up and fight to make our neighborhoods safer for our kids!!

But how you ask....tougher laws?? More patrols?? Nope none of the above. Attacking the problem in mass numbers is the only way to deture crime from creeping into your community.

What does that mean?? It means we have doctors, chemical engineers, mechanics, machinists, construction workers, people of diverse knowledge whom are smarter than the thugs. Use that knowledge to your advantage. There isn't any better way than getting your neighborhood together and going McGeyver/A-Team on the thugs in a mass effort. Rid them from your neighborhoods by storming them on street corners and thier houses. Making citizen arrests and tossing them all in a van ziptied or handcuffed and drive then to the police station. If the police won't take care of it then..........then drive then darn van off a cliff or use your McGyver expertease and blow it up!!!!

Sorry........long rant.

Edited December 21, 2009 by kwe45919

[Guest Arko]

In the past, I was vehemently opposed to any drug legalization, but over the past few years I'm leaning more toward the Libertarian view here. Trying it couldn't do more harm, it seems.

[Guest jackdm3]

Sadly we have waited so long to do anything that in many major cities the gang members greatly out number the police and surely have more firepower. Unless you are going to bring in the military to help i dont know if there is much to be done.

That's a slippery slope. It's this kind of presence that could easily be expected to attempt to disarm us while they "deal" with the gang situation. A situation they can't control any more than our troops can control insurgents in the middle east. The thugs simply hide until the cops feel pressured to move on to some greener pastures.

[Guest mikedwood]

I pretty much agree with KWE. It seems the tipping point might be getting close. And everytime my 1st reaction is to blame the local PD.

Like here in Oak Ridge, these thugs seemingly run wild at times, but... the police catch them a lot of the time, they get out on bail until court then they are out on probation. For many of them it repeats until they kill someone then they might get time in the joint.

They caught a kid for car jacking in his early 20s this year and I think he had a rap sheet with twenty something charges. He should have been in jail many times and no where near a car.

It seems to me the thing to do is march on the court house square and let the DA and judges know that tough on crime is the only thing we will accept. If that doesn't work, well....

[strickj]

Legalizing certain drugs would put a big hole in the pockets of organized criminal networks everywhere, and I think would lead to some pretty quick disbandment and collapse. Have they admitted yet that the war on drugs has been a gigantic exercise in futility? Thinking differently and coming up with effective ways to solve problems, whether domestically or internationally, has not been this country's strong suit for some time now, and I think is a big reason why the US is in a slow slide toward mediocrity, bankruptcy, and, maybe one day, oblivion.

I agree that legalizing some of the lesser drugs like pot would not be that bad.

However, drug sales to gangs is just one source of revenue. Take away that one source and they will find another way to make money.

I pretty much agree with KWE. It seems the tipping point might be getting close. And everytime my 1st reaction is to blame the local PD.

Like here in Oak Ridge, these thugs seemingly run wild at times, but... the police catch them a lot of the time, they get out on bail until court then they are out on probation. For many of them it repeats until they kill someone then they might get time in the joint.

They caught a kid for car jacking in his early 20s this year and I think he had a rap sheet with twenty something charges. He should have been in jail many times and no where near a car.

It seems to me the thing to do is march on the court house square and let the DA and judges know that tough on crime is the only thing we will accept. If that doesn't work, well....

I agree that locking these little dip ****s up is the answer, but at the same time I know that there just is not enough room, money, police, and man power to do so.

That's the reason they have early release provisions for criminals.

To stick one new offender in jail, they must release another that's already been there.

The real jest of gangs is that it is a lifestyle. That thrive for that lifestyle will always be in our society regardless of where we are as a whole, or how much discipline is administered to the guilty.

There are ways to reduce gang presence, but more often then not, the gangs just find a new ground for playing, and new people willing to take the role.

The only ways to completely remove their presence is a 100% cooperation within each community to eradicate the scums and remove them from their streets.

Even more difficult then that is convincing people that their lives are of to no value, and they must be willing to use deadly force to deal with them.

Personally, I don't ever see that happening.

Edited December 21, 2009 by strickj

[pitt2magic]

That's a slippery slope. It's this kind of presence that could easily be expected to attempt to disarm us while they "deal" with the gang situation. A situation they can't control any more than our troops can control insurgents in the middle east. The thugs simply hide until the cops feel pressured to move on to some greener pastures.

I was in no suggesting that military intervention is a good idea, my point is I dont think local law enforcement has what it takes to fully deal with the problem.

[Smith]

I agree that legalizing some of the lesser drugs like pot would not be that bad.

However, drug sales to gangs is just one source of revenue. Take away that one source and they will find another way to make money.

I agree that locking these little dip ****s up is the answer, but at the same time I know that there just is not enough room, money, police, and man power to do so.

That's the reason they have early release provisions for criminals.

To stick one new offender in jail, they must release another that's already been there.

The real jest of gangs is that it is a lifestyle. That thrive for that lifestyle will always be in our society regardless of where we are as a whole, or how much discipline is administered to the guilty.

There are ways to reduce gang presence, but more often then not, the gangs just find a new ground for playing, and new people willing to take the role.

The only ways to completely remove their presence is a 100% cooperation within each community to eradicate the scums and remove them from their streets.

Even more difficult then that is convincing people that their lives are of to no value, and they must be willing to use deadly force to deal with them.

Personally, I don't ever see that happening.

Agree. Legalize one thing they will find another. Don't forget it was foreign enemies of the US that used drugs as a way to break down America from within. Take that away and they will find something new.

Legalizing will just add another wrinkle and ironically give the government one more control over society. It's always interesting to me Libertarians want to legalize drugs and minimize government. Don't they realize they would be putting a huge money maker that has people highly addicted to substances only the government controls. How does that make sense.

Anyway immigration control is the biggest way to stop these gangs. Almost all of the major gangs are immigrant groups trafficking between the US and their mother countries. Take that element out and the local gangs will be manageable like they were back in the day.If you recall the war on drugs and the immigration go hand in hand.

[Mark@Sea]

If you recall the war on drugs and the immigration go hand in hand.

And the powers-that-be don't want to win either battle. If the crisis were gone, a whole lot of people would suddenly get very interested in the personal liberties we've lost. A whole lot of federal, state and local enforcement agencies would lose a very significant portion of their budget. A whole lot of lawyers would be out a steady source of income.

Franklins' quote about trading liberty for safety - well, there will always be some willing to go along, as long as there is a perceived threat. Government and bureaucracy, like anything else, wants to grow - and a "crisis", manufactured or otherwise, is the best fertilizer.

There is another quote concerning the best fertilizer for "the tree of liberty", yet politicians get away with multi-million dollar bribes, attacks on the Bill of Rights, influence and vote peddling, absolute ignorance of the Constitution and its' checks and balances...

Hold them responsible. Not to some showboat "ethics" committee, not to a future election (where they'll simply slide over to a politically appointed position) but to the people. Treat attacks on the Constitution as a crime, instead of consequence-free treason.

As for the (other) gang problem...

Alexis De Tocqueville wrote that the lack of crime in America was due to the willingness of every citizen to pursue, apprehend, and when necessary punish offenders. As long as this is punished (frequently more harshly than the crime that was committed), we'll have a crime problem.

When and why did 'vigilante' become a bad word? As it is, killers get made into role models instead of examples. Lawyers, judges, celebrities, and politicians practically fight to see who can get the most mileage out of "the plight" of those individuals and groups who violently attack us. The citizen who takes arms to defend himself, his family, his home or property is, in many cases, guaranteed that his life will be destroyed by the system as a punishment. Prosecutors give the criminals a pass in order to attack the innocent. At worst, they face losing an election - we face losing our lives, one way or another.

Maybe thats' why the Lone Ranger wore a mask. I would, if I were in his boots.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Mark@Sea

[Guest Drewsett]

Agree. Legalize one thing they will find another. Don't forget it was foreign enemies of the US that used drugs as a way to break down America from within. Take that away and they will find something new.

Legalizing will just add another wrinkle and ironically give the government one more control over society. It's always interesting to me Libertarians want to legalize drugs and minimize government. Don't they realize they would be putting a huge money maker that has people highly addicted to substances only the government controls. How does that make sense.

I am one of those weird libertarians that think things like the FDA and USDA are generally good ideas. I would like to see their efforts only minimally overseen by gov't...keeping everyone honest and all.

Also, the whole "they'll find another" argument...yes, some dealers will find other avenues to commit crimes and make money. Many of them will turn to higher profile crimes like armed robbery. And hopefully be promptly shot by a 2nd amendment protected populace. Problem solved.

In all seriousness, the math doesn't lie...you remove a viable option, more people will elect to find other work/crime. You remove enough options, there are a suprisingly high number of scenarios that end up with socially favorable outcomes (they go legit). Not to mention we won't be spending as much money policing these crimes, prosecuting the offenders and incarcerating people for ridiculous amounts of time for simple possession of a controlled substance. The system as it is...is broken. You can't make harsher penalties, because criminals have shown that they don't care about the penalties enough to stop living a life of crime. You can't lock everyone up who looks like they might be in a gang, cause that's profiling...not to mention very expensive these days with pop culture being what it is.

The only fiscally responsible (dare I say fiscally conservative) idea is to legalize some, if not most drugs. Call it morally relativist, call it what you will, I call it liberty.

[Smith]

I am one of those weird libertarians that think things like the FDA and USDA are generally good ideas. I would like to see their efforts only minimally overseen by gov't...keeping everyone honest and all.

Also, the whole "they'll find another" argument...yes, some dealers will find other avenues to commit crimes and make money. Many of them will turn to higher profile crimes like armed robbery. And hopefully be promptly shot by a 2nd amendment protected populace. Problem solved.

In all seriousness, the math doesn't lie...you remove a viable option, more people will elect to find other work/crime. You remove enough options, there are a suprisingly high number of scenarios that end up with socially favorable outcomes (they go legit). Not to mention we won't be spending as much money policing these crimes, prosecuting the offenders and incarcerating people for ridiculous amounts of time for simple possession of a controlled substance. The system as it is...is broken. You can't make harsher penalties, because criminals have shown that they don't care about the penalties enough to stop living a life of crime. You can't lock everyone up who looks like they might be in a gang, cause that's profiling...not to mention very expensive these days with pop culture being what it is.

The only fiscally responsible (dare I say fiscally conservative) idea is to legalize some, if not most drugs. Call it morally relativist, call it what you will, I call it liberty.

It's balance. You can't legalize something dangerous unless people/society will police themselves and I don't believe we have a society that can police themselves at this point. America worked best when the people controlled and monitored themselves. There is no utopia either way, but until we return to a place where personal responsibility is preeminent, liberty can not be loosed. Of course personal responsibility will struggle to return the more we don't force people to be responsible. Simple theory. Hard in practice. Kind of a chicken and egg thing.

Bottom line is that we shouldn't have to tell people not to be stupid, but unfortunately we do.

On the other side I truly believe that if we controlled immigration these would be non issues or at least minor issues like they were previously. Of course as pointed out there is too much political capital involved to do that.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Smith

[Hotshot]

Alcatraz. Round them up and send them there. Give them drugs and guns and let them live and die the way they want. Just not around us.

Drugs should never be legalized. Not even pot. That's just crazy talk. Alcohol and cigarettes ruin enough lives. Making money off it just ain't right.

[Guest Arko]

And the powers-that-be don't want to win either battle. If the crisis were gone, a whole lot of people would suddenly get very interested in the personal liberties we've lost. A whole lot of federal, state and local enforcement agencies would lose a very significant portion of their budget. A whole lot of lawyers would be out a steady source of income.

I agree with this sentiment. Perhaps it's not until the citizenry as a whole rise up and demand accountability of both t.he criminal and the leadership that the problem stands a chance of mitigation, and sadly that seems unlikely.

[Guest HexHead]

Legalizing certain drugs would put a big hole in the pockets of organized criminal networks everywhere, and I think would lead to some pretty quick disbandment and collapse. Have they admitted yet that the war on drugs has been a gigantic exercise in futility? Thinking differently and coming up with effective ways to solve problems, whether domestically or internationally, has not been this country's strong suit for some time now, and I think is a big reason why the US is in a slow slide toward mediocrity, bankruptcy, and, maybe one day, oblivion.

The Netherlands is backing off from their legalized prostitution and pot cafes as they're finding that organized crime moved in to control those operations. Legalizing and taxing certain drugs won't eliminate the criminal element. They'll still operate black market operations so people can avoid paying the tax on it.

[Guest HexHead]

I was in no suggesting that military intervention is a good idea, my point is I dont think local law enforcement has what it takes to fully deal with the problem.

I agree. We should hire the "private contractors" when we pull them out of Iraq to deal with the gangs. And don't bother giving them arrest powers.

[Guest Arko]

The Netherlands is backing off from their legalized prostitution and pot cafes as they're finding that organized crime moved in to control those operations. Legalizing and taxing certain drugs won't eliminate the criminal element. They'll still operate black market operations so people can avoid paying the tax on it.

That's why I go back and forth on that point. My gut tells me not to legalize, but then I wonder if if may actually help.

[Guest HexHead]

That's why I go back and forth on that point. My gut tells me not to legalize, but then I wonder if if may actually help.

Well, when the places that have tried it are reversing course because of the problems it's caused, that's gotta tell you something. And there's probably no country on earth as liberal as the Netherlands.

[DaveTN]

The Police have all the tools they need to deal with gangs. But there are two problems. One is where are you going to put them when they are arrested? Jails and prisons are already letting criminals go because they are overcrowded. The other problem is getting Judges that interpret the Constitution in the way our founding fathers intended. The liberal bleeding hearts are going to raise hell when gang members are targeted simply for being gang members.

If you use the government’s numbers, 70% of the people in prison are there on drug charges. Not a single person should be released or get an early parole that is charged with a violent crime while one person that is charged with simple possession is in jail.

[Guest HexHead]

The Police have all the tools they need to deal with gangs. But there are two problems.

I disagree. And you left out the third problem, denial. And it ain't a river in Egypt.

When I moved here from L.A. 20 years ago, I could clearly see evidence of gangs moving in and for a decade, the official police line was that there was no gang problems here. They did nothing to stem the tide, and now it's out of control.