New pistol - Fullsize Smith & Wesson M&P-357

[molonlabetn]

Picked this sucker up from Joe & Dan this weekend, as a replacement for my Sig P239, after bugging them for the past several months about when the .357sig M&Ps would be arriving. Due to their patience with my obsessive haranguing, I felt it prudent to purchase the first example they got in.

Here are some pictures, next to it's competition, the XD-357... (I normally keep them separated, so they don't fight)

As you can see, they are very similar in size... I have not fired them side-by-side as of yet, but here are a few notes just from handling them:

1- Grip Textures: The M&P has a much softer, rounded grip... it feels warm, and offers even support of the hand ( I prefer the smallest and the largest grip insert, the medium insert feels horrible to me ). The XD has a much harder, smoother feeling grip-frame which offers support in all the right places, but has more pressure points and texture felt when gripping firmly. I'd describe both as very comfortable, just different. - edit: The grip seems to flex, or move around more in my hand, when firing, compared to the XD. Updating to show that the XD is preferred (by me).

M&P < XD

2- Magazine Release: The XD has a very positive, solid feel when locking a magazine in place... and requires conscious pressure to release it. The M&P locking mechanism feels flimsy, less positive, and requires very little effort to drop the magazine. The XD mag release is ambidextrous, the M&P's is not.

M&P < XD

3- Trigger Function: This was a surprising side-by-side subjective comparison, I was expecting to like the M&P trigger much better... but they are nearly equal, just different. The XD has a uniform trigger between the initial and reset pulls, but the M&P has significant take-up initially with a very crisp, short reset. Subjectively, the XD has a much better initial trigger pull, but the M&P has a much better reset. Until I can fire them side-by-side, I'm calling a draw. - edit: In actual usage, the M&P has a much grittier trigger than the XD, and the better reset is not apparent. This may improve after shooting it more, but for right now I prefer the XD.

M&P < XD

4- Build Quality: The XD has a very basic action, with few small, intricate parts. The M&P has more numerous (visible when field-stripped) moving parts. The upper on the M&P appears to be very well made, better machining and more robust parts than the XD, but the assembled frame of the M&P seems more delicate and loose, with more openings for potential debris jamming or damaging small parts. Both operate smoothly, and I like the recoil assembly of the M&P better, being a captive single spring... spiral instead of wire-coil. Similar to a newer Sig recoil assembly, just captive. Overall, the XD has a more uniform build quality, but the M&P is only sub-par in terms of the grip-frame fit and finish... while being much tighter in the top-end. Until I can test the actual functional reliability of these pistols side-by side, another draw. - edit: The recoil characteristics of the M&P are less smooth and have strange harmonics. This alone does not affect slow-fire accuracy, but shot recovery is unnatural. The gun needs a higher-rate recoil spring. My impression of build-quality has not changed, but I do think that this gun & caliber require further tuning to be as usable as an XD.

M&P = XD

5- Sights and Aiming: Both have dove-tailed 3-dot sights. The XD has a shorter sight radius, with smaller dots. Both point naturally, having similar grip-angles, though the M&P has a slightly lower bore-axis. The M&P's sights are much faster to pick up, and seem to be more precise. - edit: The M&P requires a true center hold sight picture to hit POA, as opposed to my XD, which uses a 6 o'clock hold. The M&P would be far more usable and accurate in my hands if the front sight were slightly shorter, allowing for a 6 o'clock hold. Also, the roughness of the trigger probable caused me to pull my shots slightly low anyways. I will update again when I have gotten more used to the gun. Update: Using the large backstrap insert, the gun is far more controllable, and has a more natural trigger-reach.

M&P = XD

6- Magazines: Aside from the issue of inserting and locking magazines in the gun, the M&P is also deficient in terms of the ease of loading the magazines. The feed-lips are much sharper, and the forward opening through which the cartridges are slid under the lips is very small, and requires and awkward angle. The magazines do have a higher capacity, which is a plus, but for extended range sessions I am still going to hate loading them. Also, the XD magazines seem to be much more durable, being made of a thicker, stainless metal.

M&P < XD

7- Ease of Disassembly/Assembly: Both pistols have their uppers and lowers secured together using a lever-actuated cam between the locking-block and recoil assembly. Both are disassembled by retracting and locking the slide back, and turning the lever. The XD requires that the trigger be pulled after the lever is turned and the slide rode forward, but the M&P offers the option of disabling the striker by flipping a small lever in the mag-well. The major assemblies come off the same, and both can be disassembled with ease. I don't like the added complexity of the M&P take-down setup, but it doesn't seem to cause any problems, either. Reassembling the pistols is the same, orient the barrel and recoil assembly in the upper, slide it on the lower and rack it back. The M&P automatically snaps the take-down lever back to the secured position, but the XD must be manually turned... This advantage by the M&P is negated by the need to re-engage the sear-deactivation catch in the mag-well (inserting a magazine will do this).

M&P = XD

8- Overall Aesthetics and Ergonomics: The XD is a butt-ugly gun... no getting around that. It's a chunk of steel, coated black, and slotted to fit on a plastic lower which is formed to fit the human hand. The M&P isn't much different, but it does have more curves and more pleasing surface textures to the touch. They both fit my hand exceptionally (with the proper grip insert, in the M&P)... but the M&P is easier on the eyes.

M&P > XD

After a quick tally, my preferences seem to come out in favor of the XD... with potential for some variance once I have a chance to shoot them some more. I'll be posting another range-report hopefully within a few days, since I am shooting it again this afternoon.

Thanks to Joe & Dan of Hero-Gear for letting me take this beaut home, and putting up with my harassment for one of these to arrive! I'll do it proud. So far I've just got a Don Hume 721 to carry it in, but it was very comfortable to carry around while I was breaking the holster in yesterday... surprisingly easy to conceal, too, under light cool-weather clothing.

I welcome your comments and questions.

Edit: I was a bit disappointed in my first impression of the M&P, but hopefully with a bit more trigger-time I'll be able to do it justice, or solidify my criticisms. I'll be at On-Target in Murfreesboro on the 8th of Dec (I expect around 1pm), if anyone wishes to come put a mag through her or say 'hi'.

[Guest Mugster]

Looks like you got a couple of good pistols there.

When i shot an XD in 9mm back when they came out, the barrel was so high it felt very weird to me and didn't point very well for me, which you seem to refer to as bore axis. Looks like that smith may have solved that issue.

[molonlabetn]

Looks like you got a couple of good pistols there.

When i shot an XD in 9mm back when they came out, the barrel was so high it felt very weird to me and didn't point very well for me, which you seem to refer to as bore axis. Looks like that smith may have solved that issue.

I don't really consider the higher bore-axis an issue, per se... since many excellent pistols have higher bore axis' than the XD (Sigs and 1911s come to mind). It has never caused an issue with controlling recoil, compared to pistols with very low bore-axis' such as Glocks, which don't shoot any where near as naturally, for me. If the M&P handles recoil any better, I would be much quicker to attribute that to the fact that it has a higher slide-mass. Bore-axis is simply a variable in the eternal question of what pistol fits a given person better, as you found the XD was not, for you.

[Guest Mugster]

I wouldn't mind a few comments on the .357 sig round (never shot it). How does it compare to say a 45 acp in recoil, and do you think it is comparable to a 357mag/41/44/45 caliber in terms of what Evan Marshall might call "stopping power"?

[Marswolf]

Tupperware guns just keep evolving. I'll be interested in hearing a shooting report.

[molonlabetn]

I wouldn't mind a few comments on the .357 sig round (never shot it). How does it compare to say a 45 acp in recoil, and do you think it is comparable to a 357mag/41/44/45 caliber in terms of what Evan Marshall might call "stopping power"?

Factually, the .357sig cartridge is designed to replicate the performance of .357magnum, both using 125gr bullets, fired from service-sized weapons. The cartridge is constructed of a bottle-necked case similar in size to .40s&w, loaded with a 9mm bullet. Because of its bottle-necked design, it inherently feeds very reliably, even with JHP ammo.

Nominal ballistics for the .357sig:

125gr projectile, 1350fps at the muzzle

Performance loads for the cartridge achieve numbers such as:

115gr projectile, 1600fps at the muzzle (Double-Tap Ammo)

140gr projectile, 1350fps at the muzzle (Sellier & Bellot)

125gr projectile, 1450fps at the muzzle (Double-Tap Ammo)

Subjectively, the .357sig recoils with comparable force to .40s&w and .45acp, but it recoils in a more snappy manner whereas .45acp is a soft, heavy 'push'. The high velocity of the projectile it fires provides a very flat trajectory, combined with the noted inherent accuracy of the cartridge, allows for precise shot placement even at long ranges.

I'd be happy to let you shoot either of my .357sig pistols anytime.

In my opinion, .357sig is the ideal SD cartridge for a semi-auto pistol (mainly because it most closely replicates .357magnum performance, which is the standard by which all are compared)... I am under no illusions that it is up to the same par as .41mag and .44mag, or even heavy hunting loads for .357magnum, but in the role of a high-capacity auto-loading man-stopper, it is at the top of the food-chain compared to the 3 most common semi-auto cartridges.

The downside of .357sig (and the only one), is the cost of practice ammo... which is 20-30% more than 9mm, and equal to .45acp.

Tupperware guns just keep evolving. I'll be interested in hearing a shooting report.

Hopefully I'll get to do that Thursday or Friday... I will be thorough and critical. Might even try to capture some video.

[TGO David]

Nice. Maybe the .357SIG M&P Compact will be out soon. I kept hearing "End of 2007" as the most official answer on these and it seems that S&W is keeping their word.

[Smith]

Or you could just use 9mm +p or +p+ and get the same ballistic effects at a lower cost. course then you couldn't impress people with the .357 sig name. Seriously, I would love a .357 sig or .45, I just can't afford ammo..... I like to shoot a lot!

Great review BTW. I love side by side comparisons. Great job!

[molonlabetn]

Or you could just use 9mm +p or +p+ and get the same ballistic effects at a lower cost. course then you couldn't impress people with the .357 sig name. Seriously, I would love a .357 sig or .45, I just can't afford ammo..... I like to shoot a lot!

Great review BTW. I love side by side comparisons. Great job!

Well, considering that +p+ ammo for 9mm is not recommended in many pistols (including the M&P), and it is just as expensive as .357sig...

The last thing that I would want to do is practice with a watered down std-pressure 9mm load, and carry a hot load with twice the energy which will be inconsistent with what I practiced with. Or, if I did practice with 9mm +p+ (which would negate the cost reason for having a 9mm), I'd be battering the frame of my pistol... whereas the .357sig platform is built and sprung for the higher recoil and pressure.

Besides that, there is no maxed out +p+ 9mm load made by a common manufacturer which comes within 100fps of just the nominal .357sig load, much less the performance loads.

Seriously, if purchased in bulk from the right places, .357sig is cheaper than .45acp, and only $20-$30 more per case than 9mm. It's really not as big an issue as some make it out to be (unless you buy ammo one box at a time).

[Marswolf]

Yeah, continued shooting of hot ammo in guns not intended for continuous hot ammo use is really not a good idea. The 357 SIG guns are engineered for the stresses.

Molonlabetn, I thought that was an excellent description of the recoil of the 357 SIG.

In a related manner, I almost bought a 357 SIG handgun today. Almost....

I spent the early part of the day at an Army ammunition plant at Kingsport. After that, I had to run to Bristol for some business and dropped into a gun shop I had only been in once before. I went over to the pistol case and spotted a label that said something about 357 SIG. A slightly closer look showed it to be a H&K USPc in that caliber. Used gun and the price looked reasonable. I spent quite a bit of time fondling the weapon and it really does feel good. I think most of the people there who own the place or came in to hang out are LE related folks. Mostly a hunting shop, but also very knowledgeable about handguns. We all pretty much agreed on XDs, SIGs and other...handguns. They had some neato rifles too.

In the end, I decided to pass for now. If it had been a full size USP in that caliber (that H&K doesn't make) I certainly would have bought it. Damn that gun felt good in my hand. Very natural and with a quality feel. I need to do some checking. If I can change out the hammer on the compact USP for the one on the full size, I'll probably go that way. The ability to easily de-cock and re-cock any of my duty handguns is very important to me. It is central to the carry style that I've developed over time.

[Guest Mugster]

Factually, the .357sig cartridge is designed to replicate the performance of .357magnum, both using 125gr bullets, fired from service-sized weapons. The cartridge is constructed of a bottle-necked case similar in size to .40s&w, loaded with a 9mm bullet. Because of its bottle-necked design, it inherently feeds very reliably, even with JHP ammo.

Nominal ballistics for the .357sig:

125gr projectile, 1350fps at the muzzle

Performance loads for the cartridge achieve numbers such as:

115gr projectile, 1600fps at the muzzle (Double-Tap Ammo)

140gr projectile, 1350fps at the muzzle (Sellier & Bellot)

125gr projectile, 1450fps at the muzzle (Double-Tap Ammo)

Subjectively, the .357sig recoils with comparable force to .40s&w and .45acp, but it recoils in a more snappy manner whereas .45acp is a soft, heavy 'push'. The high velocity of the projectile it fires provides a very flat trajectory, combined with the noted inherent accuracy of the cartridge, allows for precise shot placement even at long ranges.

I'd be happy to let you shoot either of my .357sig pistols anytime.

In my opinion, .357sig is the ideal SD cartridge for a semi-auto pistol (mainly because it most closely replicates .357magnum performance, which is the standard by which all are compared)... I am under no illusions that it is up to the same par as .41mag and .44mag, or even heavy hunting loads for .357magnum, but in the role of a high-capacity auto-loading man-stopper, it is at the top of the food-chain compared to the 3 most common semi-auto cartridges.

The downside of .357sig (and the only one), is the cost of practice ammo... which is 20-30% more than 9mm, and equal to .45acp.

Hopefully I'll get to do that Thursday or Friday... I will be thorough and critical. Might even try to capture some video.

Hey thats a nice offer. I have a ruger blackhawk in .45 I was planning to sight in with some .45 acp handloads, and i need to work on my rifle loads as well. I'll probably be down at terry's place in manchester friday afternoon, if the river don't rise. You'd be welcome to shoot a few through either. Its getting dark darn early now though.

[molonlabetn]

Hey thats a nice offer. I have a ruger blackhawk in .45 I was planning to sight in with some .45 acp handloads, and i need to work on my rifle loads as well. I'll probably be down at terry's place in manchester friday afternoon, if the river don't rise. You'd be welcome to shoot a few through either. Its getting dark darn early now though.

Friday it is. I'll try to be out at Terry's around 4:30... Look for a green Camaro.

[Guest Mugster]

I'm hoping to get there around 3, but i have a track session with my 5k crew at noonish, so I dunno what time i'll actually show up. I'll def be there by 4:30 though.

Red mazda 4x4 pickup (looks like a ranger). I'll be the guy with a ton of crap spread out everywhere.

[molonlabetn]

Friday it is. I'll try to be out at Terry's around 4:30... Look for a green Camaro.

Well, this sucks... I won't be able to make it. I'll be putting a fuel pump in the Camaro.

[Guest Mugster]

Well, this sucks... I won't be able to make it. I'll be putting a fuel pump in the Camaro.

Ah thats ok, I shoot almost every week. I did 4x800 at the track...I can shoot fine, but i might have trouble walking down and setting up my targets, lol.

[TGO David]

Well, this sucks... I won't be able to make it. I'll be putting a fuel pump in the Camaro.

I forget... does the 3rd Gen CamBird have the access panel in the floor board or is it like the 4th Gen where you have to drop the rear axle to get to the pump? I had to do that on my '93 and so began my love-hate affair with that car.

[Guest Mugster]

Well, this sucks... I won't be able to make it. I'll be putting a fuel pump in the Camaro.

Ah thats ok, I shoot almost every week. I did 4x800 at the track...I can shoot fine, but i might have trouble walking down and setting up my targets, lol.

[molonlabetn]

I forget... does the 3rd Gen CamBird have the access panel in the floor board or is it like the 4th Gen where you have to drop the rear axle to get to the pump? I had to do that on my '93 and so began my love-hate affair with that car.

The right way to do it is to drop the axle, suspension, and exhaust... but my way is better.

I cut a hole in the hump in my hatch, and cut the hard fuel lines as well, to get the pump & pickup assembly out. I've got some fuel-injection hose and clamps to reconnect my lines. And some 18-gauge plate to pop-rivet back over the hole before I fold the carpet back over it. I took some pictures, if I get a chance I'll post one to show what I'm talking about.

Nothing major... it just sucks that I had to get this sucker towed back to the house from work and will have to miss an opportunity to go shooting this afternoon while I fix it.

Oh well... It may be broke, but at least it's not a Ford.

[Guest Mugster]

I tell ya, I just got back. By 5pm its getting dark. I'm glad I got there by 3:15ish, got in an hour and a half anyway. Firing the .45 auto was sheer flame everywhere towards the end, so it did look pretty cool. That blackhawk is a beast compared to a usgi .45, even with the same ammo. Took me awhile to get used to it again.

[TGO David]

Oh well... It may be broke, but at least it's not a Ford.

I know what you mean, man. It would suck to not be forced to work on a car every weekend, so it's awesome that you have a GM product.

[molonlabetn]

Well, the car is back together (as of Saturday)... and I got to go shoot 3-gun, but I still haven't had a good opportunity to wring out the M&P. I'm hoping to do that the end of this week.

Mugster... will you be at Terry's again Friday? Hopefully I've fulfilled my quota of emergencies this past week, so there's an excellent chance that I'll actually be able to show up this time. I'd be able to get there around 3:00-3:30.

[Guest Mugster]

Sounds like a winner to me. I need to break out the chrono on some .223 if I can get it loaded in time, so I may be there a little earlier hopefully.

I'm going to miss opening centerfire for that darn 5k race, but there's plenty of bambi's to go around I think.

[molonlabetn]

Now all I need to do is get ahold of a Glock 31, and I'll have all 3 of the major striker-fired tupperware guns available in .357sig.

Now THAT would be a helluva review to be able to do. Might even be worth buying a Glock 31 to write up a long term report.

Anyways... I'll write up the second portion of my review on the M&P after I get through shooting it this afternoon.

[Marswolf]

Sounds like you need a major non-striker fired 357 SIG gun to go with that.

[Guest Mugster]

Heh, I predict a 1911 might be his next piece.

We had a good little shoot at the range. I hate winter, it gets dark and cold early...almost time to break out the video games.